free-floating barrel?
- Thread starter rudar
- Start date
Now with pictures! I made it out to the range again today. As a reminder, the rifle is a Remington 700 BDL in 270 Winchester that I bought second hand. The ammo are hand-loads; today I shot 5-shot groups with 51, 52, and 53 grains of H414 behind a 130 grain Hornady Interlock, ignited by CCI primers. Then I repeated the groups in the other direction. I was not entirely fastidious about letting the barrel cool fully between groups, but gave it some rest. The six targets are:
Group sizes might be hard to read off the photo...
51 grains --- 2.5" (top left)
52 grains --- 2" (top centre)
53 grains --- 1.75" (top right)
53 grains --- 2.5" (bottom right)
52 grains --- 1.75" (bottom centre)
51 grains --- 3" (bottom left)
Strangely, the 53 grain load that was best on the first round had a totally different shape on the second round. So, to combine the two 5-shot groups into a 10-shot group for each load, I traced the holes onto a fresh target with different colours (blue and black are hard to tell apart, though...)
Now I measure
51 grains --- 3"
52 grains --- 2.25"
53 grains --- 2.875"
I did not manage to talk anyone else into shooting strict groups with my handloads (I guess that's a risky thing to do for a stranger---not sure I'd want to shoot anyone else's handloads, when it comes right down to it...)
Anyway, based on those targets, and my non-existent bank account, what does the collected wisdom of the CGN think I should do? Sand off the pressure point in the barrel, look into glass bedding kits, see how much a gunsmith would charge for a trigger lightening job, or just load up a couple hunnert of the 52 grain loads and start some serious practice from field positions? I have close to 4 lbs of powder and 300 primers and bullets in my reloading bench, so the latter would be cost-free (except for gas to get to the range...)
Group sizes might be hard to read off the photo...
51 grains --- 2.5" (top left)
52 grains --- 2" (top centre)
53 grains --- 1.75" (top right)
53 grains --- 2.5" (bottom right)
52 grains --- 1.75" (bottom centre)
51 grains --- 3" (bottom left)
Strangely, the 53 grain load that was best on the first round had a totally different shape on the second round. So, to combine the two 5-shot groups into a 10-shot group for each load, I traced the holes onto a fresh target with different colours (blue and black are hard to tell apart, though...)
Now I measure
51 grains --- 3"
52 grains --- 2.25"
53 grains --- 2.875"
I did not manage to talk anyone else into shooting strict groups with my handloads (I guess that's a risky thing to do for a stranger---not sure I'd want to shoot anyone else's handloads, when it comes right down to it...)
Anyway, based on those targets, and my non-existent bank account, what does the collected wisdom of the CGN think I should do? Sand off the pressure point in the barrel, look into glass bedding kits, see how much a gunsmith would charge for a trigger lightening job, or just load up a couple hunnert of the 52 grain loads and start some serious practice from field positions? I have close to 4 lbs of powder and 300 primers and bullets in my reloading bench, so the latter would be cost-free (except for gas to get to the range...)
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I just bought and glass bedded a brand NIB Rem 700 LSS in 30-06.
When I took the rifle to the range to start breaking it in I was getting 3"-4" groups to say I was disappointed was an understatement, so I pulled it a part bought a Glass bedding kit and went at it for the first time on a bolt action rifle.
Just took it back to the range last week it is now a 1" 100 yard rifle.
When I took the rifle to the range to start breaking it in I was getting 3"-4" groups to say I was disappointed was an understatement, so I pulled it a part bought a Glass bedding kit and went at it for the first time on a bolt action rifle.
Just took it back to the range last week it is now a 1" 100 yard rifle.
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I am not fond of pressure on the underside of a barrel of a Remington 700. I glass-bed and free float all my 700's and most are shooting very fine groups, indeed. I recently had a real issue with a 30 cal magnum I purchased. It would only shoot 3" groups with everything I tried. Free-floating that barrel brought the 5-shot groups down close to 1" [had a couple under 1"] Wood stocks are far too unpredictable to leave them touching, IMHO. Float that 700 barrel and shoot it. You may be pleasantly surprised. Eagleye.
1-you have a holding problem
2-you have a breathing problem
3-pretty good, you only pulled one shot
4-holding again
5-you loosing focus and determination
6-breathing again
from what I remember about patterns, dont shoot me for it
Before you do anything, raise the barrel & action up a little using shims made out of playing cards (a couple of thickness is usually sufficient). This should free float the barrel and answer your ??????? with little work. Most times however free floating works best on "heavier" barrels while the lighter ones may "enjoy" the added support. Again shims (cards) can be used to add "temporary" support and removed easily should no benefit be gained. FWIW --- John303.
I have a couple of suggestions.
Something that nobody has mentioned yet is cartridge OAL with the reloads. I've seen some amazing things happen with my loads with just an adjustment of OAL.
If you're having holding issues, breathing issues, maybe some recoil issues or flinching after a bunch of rounds, I'd suggest a solid rest that you use use to duplicate shots.
I use a "Bench Master" rest and I see a lot of other people at the range have them as well.
When building loads, I just use 3 shot groups and let the barrel cool down between groups.
Something that nobody has mentioned yet is cartridge OAL with the reloads. I've seen some amazing things happen with my loads with just an adjustment of OAL.
If you're having holding issues, breathing issues, maybe some recoil issues or flinching after a bunch of rounds, I'd suggest a solid rest that you use use to duplicate shots.
I use a "Bench Master" rest and I see a lot of other people at the range have them as well.
When building loads, I just use 3 shot groups and let the barrel cool down between groups.
1-you have a holding problem
2-you have a breathing problem
3-pretty good, you only pulled one shot
4-holding again
5-you loosing focus and determination
6-breathing again
from what I remember about patterns, dont shoot me for it
Something like that. Check out the Lee diagnostic target about halfway down this page. It may help some. http://www.reloadbench.com/pdf.html
Are you shooting off sand bags? If not, take an old pair of pants and cut the legs off 'em tie the ends with wire, hose clamps, or tie wraps and presto - sandbags on a budget. While you're at it fill a sock with sand, pea gravel, or beans about 4" full for a rear rest. Stick the sock under the tail end of your stock and squeeze or release it to adjust elevation. More practice shooting in field positions will likely do little to help troubleshoot your accuracy problem. I would focus on eliminating human error as much as possible during load development by using good old sandbags and basic shooting technique.
There's some excellent tips and tricks on technique in this clip. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwaV_M8nGLw&feature=related
Looking at your targets, I'd say your getting close to having a winner with the 53.0 gr. If you're not getting any overpressure signs, I'd try another 5rd at 53.0 and 5rds each at 52.5 and 53.5. I have been working up a load or two for my .270 as well, but using IMR 4831 and H4831. I tried increasing COAL by .020" on a couple otherwise indentical loads and went from 1/2" group to 2 1/2" which just goes to show how much of a difference a small adjustment can make.
If your thinking of bedding the action and free floating the barrel yourself, go for it! It should cost $20 or less for materials and could make a world of difference. The guy in this clip tends to ramble even more than me
but has some good advice.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdUh...988A6F097&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=2
You may have to start from scratch on load development afterwards. Hope this helps.
Well - I'm surprised no one has suggested changing bullet weight. Thats the easiest way to change barrel residence time. You may be fighting barrel harmonics at 130 grains.
Without playing around with bullet weight you'll never know...
Without playing around with bullet weight you'll never know...
That's the frustrating thing about shooting, esp for a newbie shooter, is that there are SO many variables that can ruin group size.
bedding
free floating bbl
bullet
powder
primer
seating depth
trigger
shooting style and/or conditions
flinch
dirty bore
bad bore
scope
mounts
other mechanical problems w/rifle
etc, etc ........
Feel better now?
.
bedding
free floating bbl
bullet
powder
primer
seating depth
trigger
shooting style and/or conditions
flinch
dirty bore
bad bore
scope
mounts
other mechanical problems w/rifle
etc, etc ........
Feel better now?
.
If it was my rifle and I wanted to keep it, I'd send it out for a complete accurizing tune up w/bedding and free floated bbl, make sure I have a good rest to shoot from and try some 4350 or 4831 with some different bullets. Also, get some copper cleaner for the bore.
That's a good rifle in a good cartridge. It'll shoot better.
.
That's a good rifle in a good cartridge. It'll shoot better.
.
Finger Toes
Regular
- Location
- Yellowhead County
1-you have a holding problem
2-you have a breathing problem
3-pretty good, you only pulled one shot
4-holding again
5-you loosing focus and determination
6-breathing again
from what I remember about patterns, dont shoot me for it
Ever heard if it's vertical stringing it's most likely the rifle, if it's horizontal stringing it's the shooter?
Ain't that the truth?
And while someone said practice from field positions won't help chase down my accuracy problems, I do need to keep in mind that spending all my time chasing sub-MOA off sandbags won't necessarily help me hit a deer in the field, either. Ah, well.
Thanks for all the advice and suggestions; sounds like this rifle isn't one of the light-barrelled ones that would suffer from free-floating, and sand-paper's cheap... So I'll try that, shoot it again (may be another couple weeks before I make it to the range) and see if that helps. And then I'll practice and get better at shooting.
10 shots are too many for a light sporter. barrel gets very hot. You might be getting consistent and good 3 shot groups.
Yes, float the barrel and re-seal the wood with something.
Then shoot a 3 shot group. Adjust the scope; let barrel cool all the way and repeat.
if group is better, good.
then let cool and see if group goes to same place. In a hunting rifle, holding zero is more important than group size. If group is under 2" and it is always at the same place, you are good to go.
Bedding the action would be good but I do not suggest you learn on a Rem 700. Can you bed a few cooeys for practice? Don't forget the mould release on the action, screws and screw holes.
Yes, float the barrel and re-seal the wood with something.
Then shoot a 3 shot group. Adjust the scope; let barrel cool all the way and repeat.
if group is better, good.
then let cool and see if group goes to same place. In a hunting rifle, holding zero is more important than group size. If group is under 2" and it is always at the same place, you are good to go.
Bedding the action would be good but I do not suggest you learn on a Rem 700. Can you bed a few cooeys for practice? Don't forget the mould release on the action, screws and screw holes.
I'm relatively new a reloading too, but I will share my similar issues with my .270 (not a 700) and reloading.
I had tried 3-4 different powders with 130gr, 140gr and 150gr Hornady bullets never getting better than a 2.5" group (rifle is free floated).
I figured it was the best the rifle would do, which for hunting would be ok.
Then I tried a new powder (IMR4831 IIRC) and Nosler AP bullets in 140gr and managed to get a group of 5 in under an inch.
Buy your powder in 1lb containers until you find one the rifle likes, then stock up with a big container.
Don't give up!
I had tried 3-4 different powders with 130gr, 140gr and 150gr Hornady bullets never getting better than a 2.5" group (rifle is free floated).
I figured it was the best the rifle would do, which for hunting would be ok.
Then I tried a new powder (IMR4831 IIRC) and Nosler AP bullets in 140gr and managed to get a group of 5 in under an inch.
Buy your powder in 1lb containers until you find one the rifle likes, then stock up with a big container.
Don't give up!
Well, for what it's worth, the blueing wear on my barrel and testing with a slip of paper suggests that there was contact between the forestock and barrel at *both* sides, as well as the bottom of the channel. It's now sanded so a paper slides back and forth with no binding, and then given two coats of varnish. Hopefully the varnish won't build it back up to where it's contacting Dunno if I'll get back to the range to test it for a couple of weeks, but at least the varnish will have a good long time to cure.
Dunno if I'll get back to the range to test it for a couple of weeks, but at least the varnish will have a good long time to cure.nope, thats what I remember from teaching marksmanship
wouldnt linsid oil be better to seal the exposed wood?
Possibly, and if I were to sand and refinish the whole stock, I probably would use either linseed or tung oil for a matter finish. But the stock is currently varnished, and I had a small pot of varnish in the workshop already, so that's good enough.
