French 1892 revolver
- Thread starter Sluice
- Start date
- Location
- West Quebec
Any pics?
I have seen a few French made ones without serial numbers, the last one was a presentation/prize model with a shooting competition silver disc on the grip. Only the government/military ordered and issued ones were required to have a serial number for inventory and accounting purposes.
Did you buy it recently? Does it have a silver disc fitted on the grip?
They are more common then most think, they must have awarded a fair amount of them, here is one -
https://www.gunsamerica.com/9099797...nch-Revolver-8mm-Lebel-Prize-Gun-GOOD-C-R.htm
Did you buy it recently? Does it have a silver disc fitted on the grip?
They are more common then most think, they must have awarded a fair amount of them, here is one -
https://www.gunsamerica.com/9099797...nch-Revolver-8mm-Lebel-Prize-Gun-GOOD-C-R.htm
And some French made ones did not even have serial numbers, I have pictures of one I handled about 6 months ago that was a prize gun issued to a French military officer that had no serial numbers but did have the year of manufacture and which arsenal made it.
I will try and find the pictures and post them.
Here is a commercial one also without serial number -
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No way to determine age without a s/n that I know of.
The last one without a serial number I handled recently belonged to a friend and he got a RCMP antique status letter because the barrel had the pre-1897 manufacture date as most have. But it was not a commercial model, but one built at the government MAS (Manufacture d'armes de Saint-Étienne).
Send me a PM with your email address and I will send you mine so you can send me pictures to help determine if it is antique status in Canada. I have dealt with a lot of these French revolvers and may be able to help you out.
None of the commercial models that I have seen had s/n on the frames or dates on the barrel. I have made enquiries with the rcmp firearms people in Ottawa to try and get antique status on commercial M1892 and did not have any success due to the lack of markings to prove it was pre-1898. If someone knows how to do that I would like to hear about it.
Depends if you can find a pre 1897 French black powder proof mark on it, the French changed a bunch of proof marks in 1896-7.
The French military also took into service about 20,000 commercial French made M1892's and date stamped the year taken into service, how many of these remain is anybodies guess.
I remember seeing the full list of these French proof marks sometime ago online and will try and find them again.
Here is some info -
The very informative article listing the early and pre 1897 French black powder proof markings is from - The Gun Digest – 1970 edition, article - Gun Proof in France, by Lee Kennett.
At one point in the past it was view-able online but now I can not seem to find it in full, maybe others have a copy to share.
But I did find this list of pre 1897 French Black Powder Proof marks which may help those date French guns made before 1897 -
View attachment 42873
If the picture is too small to read I can send a Jpg copy on request.
At one point in the past it was view-able online but now I can not seem to find it in full, maybe others have a copy to share.
But I did find this list of pre 1897 French Black Powder Proof marks which may help those date French guns made before 1897 -
View attachment 42873
If the picture is too small to read I can send a Jpg copy on request.
I have both of those documents already. There are some errors in them.
The St Etienne proof mark ("crown" over "S" ) in the second page, second from top was still in use well past 1824. It is commonly found on M92 revolvers, commercial and military.
The pre-1898 revolvers I have seen had the St Etienne proofhouse mark (crown over "S"), the year, and two other proofmarks: "P" within a circle, and "L" within a circle. I speculate the latter two are an early form of proofmarks for smokeless powder. Would be interesting to find the info on those marks, literature suggests St Etienne started using a different smokeless proof in 1896 or 1897. That might be a road worth exploring.
The St Etienne proof mark ("crown" over "S" ) in the second page, second from top was still in use well past 1824. It is commonly found on M92 revolvers, commercial and military.
The pre-1898 revolvers I have seen had the St Etienne proofhouse mark (crown over "S"), the year, and two other proofmarks: "P" within a circle, and "L" within a circle. I speculate the latter two are an early form of proofmarks for smokeless powder. Would be interesting to find the info on those marks, literature suggests St Etienne started using a different smokeless proof in 1896 or 1897. That might be a road worth exploring.
I think you may mean past 1924 for the crown over S completed gun proofmark which would be correct as it is reported to have been in use from 1897 to 1962 at the St. Etienne government arsenal factory.
And you have to remember that a awful lot of these government owned M1892 revolvers were re-arsenaled and then proofed again if parts were changed in the late 1920's after WW1 before being put into long term storage.
The crown over S was a special heavy black powder proof (of the time) of 800kg/cm2 (11,400 psi) used by the St. Etienne Government arsenal.
The P and L within Circles among others are the arms factory/arsenal director and controller/inspector marks, the first letter in a circle is for the director and the second the controller/inspector - Letters A, B and C used at Chatellerault, Letters D and E at Mutzig, letters F, G, H, K, L, M, N, P and Q at St-Etienne and letters R, S and T at Tulle.
On M1873 revolvers the second letter in a circle is for the steel provider (C = Forges du Creusot, J = Etablissements Jeumont, S = Schneider-Canet et Cie, T = Forges de Thionville)..
The common seen Crown over an E is a specific proof mark used at all government arms factories for government proofed firearms(E stands for ‘Epreuve’ / Proof and the crown shows government)
St. Etienne private proof switched from this
to this for use as for multi barrel or chamber standard black powder proofs and stayed with it until to they switched in 1897
to this mark as the final St. Etienne commercial black powder proofmark until 1923 and this as the Paris proofhouse equivalent.
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NorthCoastBigBore
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Have a hard copy of this in front of me if anyone still wants/needs the article after reading the follow up posts. It's ~10 pages.
No, what I said was I mean that the some of the literature one commonly finds on the internet has mistakes in it "1824" being one of the obvious ones. I think the one you posted says 1824 but it isn't clear.
Have you ever come across a M1892 revolver with BP proofs, and if so - which proofs were they? if you have that would be interesting. I have never encountered BP proofs one on the M1892commercial or military revolvers I've seen.
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Yes, I have seen black powder proofs on both military and commercial M1892 revolvers. Look for them at the rear of the cylinder and the bottom rear of the barrel on the government made ones.
The list of proofs I posted a picture of above are mainly for the commercial black powder proof marks for all types of guns/firearms that are sent to one of the government or one of their approved proof houses.
The military issue government made St. Etienne arsenal pre 1897 Black powder proof mark for these revolvers is this -
My 1874 dated Gras M1874 rifle has the exact same proof mark on both the barrel and receiver and I have a 1893 dated M1892 government made revolver and both the barrel and cylinder have the above first Black powder proof.
Your original question was asking about proof marks on commercial guns/revolvers, so this is why I posted that info.
Also keep in mind that a lot of M1892 revolver clones and very similar copies were made in Belgium and Spain among other places and they will have proof markings for those countries on them.
French Government made M1892 revolvers have a proper black powder proof mark on the bottom of their barrel under the ejector rod and on the rear face of the cylinder as the French proof act of 1885 required both the barrel and chambers to be proofed at that time.
The picture I posted above of a commercial M1892 revolver clearly shows the St. Etienne multi barrel/chamber commercial black powder proof mark in the cylinder flute, the most common manufacturer of these commercial M1892's in France was Lamure et Gidrol and the were located in St. Etienne too, and they were I believe, owned by Manufacture d'Armes et Cycles de Saint Etienne.
And here is a picture of a military M1892 barrel with black powder black powder proof, the other numerous marks/stamps on the revolver being what is called in French a Poincon (hallmark or punchmark) inspection and quality approved/passed markings that were dropped as a requirement in 1915 I think. Each inspector had his own Poincon (hallmark) stamp as the revolver parts went through their manufacture stages they were stamped on completion and quality inspection pass. -
Here is another picture of commercial French proof marks at St. Etienne -
And I found this which may be helpful when looking at older French proof marks -
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