From DI to Piston
- Thread starter Denka
- Start date
DaveMachine
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- That one place with a cowboy complex
blaxsun
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
For the win. Piston systems do run cleaner, though.
- Location
- big sky country
DI all the way. If I could yank the piston out of my M-14 and Swiss I would.
- Location
- 54°52'56"N 112°10'7"W Alpha Bravo
Really?!?
Do you have special air conditioning bullets that keep your barrel cooler? Firing rounds down the pipe is what creates most of the heat. The barrel, not the operating system.
I for one like cleaning all the carbon off (as you put it) I give my rifles a once over after every use, I use this time to not only clean, but inspect every part to insure everything is as it should be. I believe this is proper maintenance, the cleaning takes 15 minutes, and the inspection takes 10, the piece of mind however is for the life of the rifle. Less moving mechanical parts has been and always will be better. Again, the AR15 gas piston conversion was a solution to a problem that didn't exist.
DI is the most reliable op system for the AR15, period.
Ok everyone. DI is just fine, works great, has a lot of advantages...ect...ect...
Has anyone realized that many out there are switching to pistons....CAG...DevGru...now the Marines with the IAR......
Pistons offer many advantages and are the way of the future. Not that DI is bad, it's just an evolution and we should all be interested and happy. Why did the US Forces ever go away from the M14, Grand, 1903 or whatever, just advancement. Remember the dust testing a while back, the DI was the worst performer. I like DI guns, but I think the piston offers significant advantages and is the way of the future.
Rich
Has anyone realized that many out there are switching to pistons....CAG...DevGru...now the Marines with the IAR......
Pistons offer many advantages and are the way of the future. Not that DI is bad, it's just an evolution and we should all be interested and happy. Why did the US Forces ever go away from the M14, Grand, 1903 or whatever, just advancement. Remember the dust testing a while back, the DI was the worst performer. I like DI guns, but I think the piston offers significant advantages and is the way of the future.
Rich
Piston or DI...
Hmm, that's become the derigeur question for ARs recently, hasn't it?
Okay, my take...
The gas operating system on a properly designed and built rifle is going to work just fine, whether it's DI or Piston.
I have a piston driven AR, (PWS MK112) and it works very well, I put about 2000 rounds down the pipe before I cleaned it up for the second time and have had no problems with carrier tilt, piston galling or buffer spring issues. The rifle stays cool where I hold it during high volume shooting. Like any rifle, I keep the bearing surfaces lubed up and clean it every once in awhile.
I have used DI driven ARs (C7, C8, SFWS) with no problem. Fowling in/on the BCG was not a problem, I just kept the bearing surfaces lubed up and cleaned it every once in awhile. The gas return tube has been known to get a little constricted, but not enough to keep the rifle from functioning within parameters between detailed strip and cleanings.
The only real problem I've had with any AR has been when I had crap magazines.
I'm thinking that I'm going to pick up an NEA-15 soonish, they look like a pretty good bit of kit, especially for the price.
Hmm, that's become the derigeur question for ARs recently, hasn't it?
Okay, my take...
The gas operating system on a properly designed and built rifle is going to work just fine, whether it's DI or Piston.
I have a piston driven AR, (PWS MK112) and it works very well, I put about 2000 rounds down the pipe before I cleaned it up for the second time and have had no problems with carrier tilt, piston galling or buffer spring issues. The rifle stays cool where I hold it during high volume shooting. Like any rifle, I keep the bearing surfaces lubed up and clean it every once in awhile.
I have used DI driven ARs (C7, C8, SFWS) with no problem. Fowling in/on the BCG was not a problem, I just kept the bearing surfaces lubed up and cleaned it every once in awhile. The gas return tube has been known to get a little constricted, but not enough to keep the rifle from functioning within parameters between detailed strip and cleanings.
The only real problem I've had with any AR has been when I had crap magazines.
I'm thinking that I'm going to pick up an NEA-15 soonish, they look like a pretty good bit of kit, especially for the price.
I getting a Adams Arms piston upper, not because its "better" but because I want it. There are some benefits, and some druthers.The whole "us vs them" when it comes to the DI/ piston questions leaves me a bit tired. If you want it! go buy it!
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Starscream
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Southern Alberta
Way of the future?
Dude, piston is older technology. The same short stroke gas piston system everyone harps about in the 416 is about the same as in the M1 Carbine. Stoner's system was developed 30 years later. We're not going forwards as you're saying it, we're going backwards.
- Location
- 54°52'56"N 112°10'7"W Alpha Bravo
Like Starscream said, piston is not future, it's the past...
The best North American AR15 manufacturers still produce DI guns, Knights, Noveske, LMT, Colt etc. Yes, LMT does have a piston model but I believe thats strictly a market share thing, their flagship models have been and always will be DI. Same with all the others...
So, the top manu's in the world still produce DI guns, why is that? I thought piston was the future?
blaxsun
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Good enough for the seals... good enough for me. There's a few more things than just the piston system in the HK416 (or MR223) that people 'harp' about, though. It is a very slick system.
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I wouldn't say piston guns are inherently better or worse than DI - actually I wouldn't know and I think it would be difficult to test.
But what I do know is that none of the high-speed people that are switching to a piston gun are switching to an AR with a Adams Arms piston kit.
If they are switching to a "piston AR", it's the HK, which overall seems to be a success. But the fact that one company has built what is effectively a piston AR and worked out most of the kinks doesn't mean OTHER piston ARs are any good.
HK can afford to do more R&D than almost anyone, and definitely more than anyone else building a piston AR. And they still had teething problems.
So even if piston technology is ultimately better, buying a civilian piston AR is not necessarily better as well.
To put it another way, electrical motors have been around for a long time, about as long as internal combustion engines, and it may be that electrical cars are the future. But does that mean a Chevy Volt is a great car? Or even a good car? Or even an average car? No. Electrical cars MAY be superior in some way and we may EVENTUALLY all be driving electrical cars. But at the moment, they're early in the development curve, use non-standardized parts, and so on.
If you shoot a DI AR, you're taking advantage of 50 years of development. If you shoot a piston AR, you're taking advantage of 5 years of development, mainly done by minor outfits like Adams Arms, not powerhouses like Colt and FN, because they haven't been stuffing pistons in to ARs.
If you want a piston gun, there are lots of good choices but IMO the AR is not yet one of them, unless you get the HK, which sounds like they have basically sorted out the issues.
I would look at the SIG 55X series, the VZ, the AK if outside of Canada, and so on. I would not buy a piston kit AR, personally.
But what I do know is that none of the high-speed people that are switching to a piston gun are switching to an AR with a Adams Arms piston kit.
If they are switching to a "piston AR", it's the HK, which overall seems to be a success. But the fact that one company has built what is effectively a piston AR and worked out most of the kinks doesn't mean OTHER piston ARs are any good.
HK can afford to do more R&D than almost anyone, and definitely more than anyone else building a piston AR. And they still had teething problems.
So even if piston technology is ultimately better, buying a civilian piston AR is not necessarily better as well.
To put it another way, electrical motors have been around for a long time, about as long as internal combustion engines, and it may be that electrical cars are the future. But does that mean a Chevy Volt is a great car? Or even a good car? Or even an average car? No. Electrical cars MAY be superior in some way and we may EVENTUALLY all be driving electrical cars. But at the moment, they're early in the development curve, use non-standardized parts, and so on.
If you shoot a DI AR, you're taking advantage of 50 years of development. If you shoot a piston AR, you're taking advantage of 5 years of development, mainly done by minor outfits like Adams Arms, not powerhouses like Colt and FN, because they haven't been stuffing pistons in to ARs.
If you want a piston gun, there are lots of good choices but IMO the AR is not yet one of them, unless you get the HK, which sounds like they have basically sorted out the issues.
I would look at the SIG 55X series, the VZ, the AK if outside of Canada, and so on. I would not buy a piston kit AR, personally.
blaxsun
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I'm going to try to get my hands on a Adams Arms upper,and drink some of the piston Koolaid, LOL A 416 upper would be nice, but at $3500 a pop its alittle rich for my blood.
If I was going to get a new piston system I'd be tempted with one of the PWS offerings. The MR223 is essentially a longer version of the HK416 - and you do get the lower as well. When you compare HK to LMT or LWRC the price isn't that terribly out of line.
blaxsun
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
There's also the ACR - which is a pretty nice piston setup as well (albeit not an AR).
In an alternate dimension right now
, I'm sure there are folk defending the wide-scale military and competition adoption of the piston-powered AR-18A2 , from those clamouring for the DI AR-15 that was rejected in its stead....
Hokus Grey
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Somewhere between "WTF?" and "FTW!".
PWS is getting good buzz for their set-up, which is still in its infancy (in an AR). LMT and LWRC seem to have made a system that works well enough that people who use it, like it a lot. Throw HK into the mix, as they are the Gucci gun when it comes to this sh*t and that's pretty much the whole club for tested piston AR's.
Personally, I wouldn't be afraid to run any of these.
Personally, I wouldn't be afraid to run any of these.
