FRT's for Antiques

I looked at my FRT table for this revolver. The #5 was introduced in 1881 with 4 variations. 3 in large caliber and 1 in small caliber. The FRT # is 23361-??. The last 2 digits will coincide with the caliber of the revolver. They list as prohibited and restricted only. Unlles you can prove manufacture date before 1898 I dont think you will get antique status
 
In the online FRT, the numbers are 118014 for guns made for Army & Navy and 118005 - * for guns made for Holland & Holland. I could not find a listing for those marketed directly by Paul Webley and Sons. Worth noting that Webley and Sons had the same initials as Webley and Scott but W & S with a winged hollow based mini ball was the trade mark for Webley and Sons while the & Scott used a winged solid based bullet. All of the hollow based bullets were made pre 1898 and I believe Mike K has information that all frames regardless of retailer, were made before 1897 although some were sold after that date made from previously produced frames

cheers mooncoon
 
Did some more checking.
Webley No5 Revolver introduced 1881 to 1914 also known as
New model army express No5 or New model solid frame express revolver.
Some were single action and some were double. Originall Webley was a bullitt and mould company founded by William Davies in the late 18th century.In 1834 Philip Webley ( Davies son-in-law) and his brother James took over the buisiness. About 1860 The Webleys sons Thomas and Henry joined and the name went to P. Webley and sons. Birmingham. In 1897 they joined with W&C Scott&sons with a name change of Webley& Scott Revolver & Arms Co. Ltd. of Birmingham. In 1906 the name changed to Webley&Scott Ltd..In the mid 1970s they ceased operation in England .The only antique status revolvers I can find is the #4 and # 4 1/2 This particular #5 is caliber 360CF with a barrel lenght of 70mm (2 3/4") Its leagal athourity in the FRT is Prohib
CC84(1) par.(a)(i) with an FRT# of 23361-28 .The only 360 loadings I could find were the 360CF or 360No5 Rook There were 2 above FRT #s given as 118014 and 118005 which are also listed as Prohib. If I am wrong with this please chime in . All extra info is welcome,. Bob
 
One more thing I forgot to add. The winged bullitt found on the front of the reciever has three variations of design. These seem to be all done after the union of both companies and trade marked as Webley&Scott
 
Three questions to answer;

1. access to the online FRT tables are only if you are a business or a verifier. Most fish and game clubs are business s and someone on the executive should have access although they may not be aware of it. You can try asking your local club exec or local verifier

2. In a sense it does not matter what the FRT table says (since there are numerous errors and/or incomplete information) If you can establish that your gun was made before Jan 1898, and that it is not a no go caliber, it is an antique. The difference between my numbers and Bob's numbers in part reflects the difficulty of searching the FRT. Many numbers on registration slips are no longer valid (have been updated) and the search engine does not link obsolete numbers with current numbers. The search engine is also extremely fussy about what names it considers to be makers vs manufacturers vs models which makes searching a challenge in many cases. I remain baffled why the RCMP did not demand that a google style search engine be incorporated into the program that was written for them.

3. Webley had many trademarks but the winged bullet with a hollow base was pre 1898 and the solid base while it may have variations was post that date. Reference is the book on the history of Webley firearms. I don't have the book but have read it.

cheers mooncoon
 
Mooncoon definately hit the nail on the head. When I first took the verifiers course they sat us down in Ottawa and showed us the program and gave us a few lessons. It looked so easy untill the research really began. There is so many firearms that are the same but given a different AKA and the FRT# changes their designation. As above does the W&S stand for Webley&S0N or Webley&Scott ?????. The only way is to prove the date of the serial number of the firearm . This pretty much has to be proven before the CFO will look at an antique status. At least here in Ontario. This leads to my next question. Does anyone know of a website database for Webley serial #s to date of manufacture? Glad google is around but it still takes time. Bob
 
Another verifier who doesn't know how it works. What a surprise!

The CFO has nothing to do with antiques. NOTHING. If you are getting a prohibited or restricted firearm removed from the registry it is the firearm registry in Ottawa, not your local CFO.
 
Hey locke it
nice post above. So I worded the thread wrong. can you find any more negativity in your heart. If you don't have any good positive info on this thread ,keep it to yourself. At least there are people here trying to help a fellow member with his problem.
 
mooncoon said:
Three questions to answer;

1. access to the online FRT tables are only if you are a business or a verifier. Most fish and game clubs are business s and someone on the executive should have access although they may not be aware of it. You can try asking your local club exec or local verifier

2. In a sense it does not matter what the FRT table says (since there are numerous errors and/or incomplete information) If you can establish that your gun was made before Jan 1898, and that it is not a no go caliber, it is an antique. The difference between my numbers and Bob's numbers in part reflects the difficulty of searching the FRT. Many numbers on registration slips are no longer valid (have been updated) and the search engine does not link obsolete numbers with current numbers. The search engine is also extremely fussy about what names it considers to be makers vs manufacturers vs models which makes searching a challenge in many cases. I remain baffled why the RCMP did not demand that a google style search engine be incorporated into the program that was written for them.

3. Webley had many trademarks but the winged bullet with a hollow base was pre 1898 and the solid base while it may have variations was post that date. Reference is the book on the history of Webley firearms. I don't have the book but have read it.

cheers mooncoon
Click to expand...

The winged HB bullet "W & S" trademark is a good indicator but no longer ensures that the CFP will accept antique status. I have researched two WG webleys with the HB trademark with the CFP classified as restricted based on the s/n inspite of the trademark.

This seems to be a departure from past practise - i know of a WG with a higher s/n than the one I refer to that was granted an antique letter on the basis of the trademark about 2-3 years ago.
 
bob347 said:
Hey locke it
nice post above. So I worded the thread wrong. can you find any more negativity in your heart. If you don't have any good positive info on this thread ,keep it to yourself. At least there are people here trying to help a fellow member with his problem.
Click to expand...

Have you ever had a firearm removed from the registry? I have. More than a few in fact.

There is more misinformation on this web site than there is straight answers. So I corrected you.

I am also a verifier, I see guys bragging about it or trying to use it to ad credibility to their posts. It's a one day course and it's a joke.

I would look to some of the sites from Europe. They have tons of info on the old webleys. Also, if the op could post pictures of all markings on the gun.
 
I think the point is that you're being grumpy or aggressive in your language - the same thing written politely would not have garnered a response. As it is, bob347 has been more helpful despite some miswording.
 
Miswording is not the issue. Misinformation is.

Not being grumpy or aggressive just stating facts.

Being thin skinned and trying to trump yourself up on some goofy course could also be an issue.
 
to the orignal poster!!!!!

All solid frame webley No 5s are pre 1894 as long as there in a OK caliber your AOK.
Forget the FRT there so full of mistakes its nuts.
In the New book titled webley solid frame revolvers by joel black and others on page 282 it states that no soild frames were bought by the webley factory after 1893

this is from the webley factory records held by Richard Milner

So relax enjoy your gun and buy the book.
anyone with a solid frame webley should plunk down the $60 or so dollars and buy this book best book yet on webley solid frame revolvers.

You cant argue with factory records nor can the CFC ;)
 
I would like to thank everyone who have dug up the info I was looking for and that has greatly influenced my decision on buying a No.5 Webley. An enormous wealth of knowledge on this site. Mike K.
 
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