Frustrated....need help from the pros
- Thread starter Throttle_monkey1
- Start date
Well you're pretty consistent with the first two shots.
I'd let the third grouse alone.
Try a few two shot groups.
Even maybe one shot at a time spaced out.
Maybe the twwwwwwack is causing you to jitter a bit?
You holding the rifle on a steady hold?
Meaning maybe canting the rifle on the third round?
I'd let the third grouse alone.
Try a few two shot groups.
Even maybe one shot at a time spaced out.
Maybe the twwwwwwack is causing you to jitter a bit?
You holding the rifle on a steady hold?
Meaning maybe canting the rifle on the third round?
steve-o1979
Regular
- Location
- Nova Scotia
I have a 6.5x55 and a 303, both have iron sights, so I'm not real good with those anyway. I have a 7600 (30-06)... The groups ain't that great with that one...2" or so, but the trigger sucks, so I'd say that's about as good as it gets. The other two are a t/c venture (30-06), and a model 70 (308), and those are the two that I'll have two good shots and a stray with.
How was the 2.5" group from the factory ammo shaped? Did it produce a consistant flyer the same as your handloads? You know enough to pay attention to the structure of the group, so is the factory stuff producing the same structure a your realoads? In my oppinion, a pair of shots doesn't shiw anything; especially if things go sour after you have fired the pair on a consistant basis.
Ivor
Ivor
Your fliers are consistently high and right, which suggests a mechanical cause to me rather than shooter error.
You want to eliminate one variable at a time. Double check your scope mount screws first.
I would shoot some 5 or even 10 round groups. If the barrel is walking because of heat, the impacts should creep up the target.
If you want to try a pressure point you can make a temporary one with electrical tape in the barrel channel.
If you're still having problems try a different scope.
You want to eliminate one variable at a time. Double check your scope mount screws first.
I would shoot some 5 or even 10 round groups. If the barrel is walking because of heat, the impacts should creep up the target.
If you want to try a pressure point you can make a temporary one with electrical tape in the barrel channel.
If you're still having problems try a different scope.
When you're shooting your three shot group, is the flyer always the third shot? Are you loading only 3 rounds in the mag each time, or single loading? If you're loading all 3 and it's the third once every time I could be something with the mag working on the third round differently.
You could try single loading, or load 3, shoot two, then load another one in and keep that bottom round in the mag for all your shots.
You could try single loading, or load 3, shoot two, then load another one in and keep that bottom round in the mag for all your shots.
Check your barrel channel, see if there is a pressure point, some rifle like one while others don't. If you have a pressure point in your barrel it could be the barrel warming up a bit and reacting to that pressure point. If there is one there you could try sanding it out, making sure the barrel is free floating. If it works just seal up the wood with a good wood finish and away you go. All my rifles, from hunting rifles to target rifles have the barrels free floated, I check it and correct it as soon as the rifle comes home and they all seem to perform very well that way.
Throttle_monkey1
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Thanks for all the input guys. The factory ammo group was spread out evenly, but to be honest it was shot when I was frustrated. The flier was sometimes high, sometimes left etc.
Got up early before work and went down to the gun room and checked the barrel channel and sure enough a piece of paper would jam up about 2/3 of the way right where the barrel starts to taper. When I refinished this stock I widened the barrel channel by sanding and then did about 10 coats of BLO and then when that dried I waxed it. There must have been enough wax to cause a ccntact point. Sanded the channel and now a piece of paper easily slides through.
I was single loading the entire time.
Got up early before work and went down to the gun room and checked the barrel channel and sure enough a piece of paper would jam up about 2/3 of the way right where the barrel starts to taper. When I refinished this stock I widened the barrel channel by sanding and then did about 10 coats of BLO and then when that dried I waxed it. There must have been enough wax to cause a ccntact point. Sanded the channel and now a piece of paper easily slides through.
I was single loading the entire time.
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Biggest question is, do your other rifles do it too? Directly beside it shoot a group with an old faithful and see what happens, you'll immediately know if it's you or the rifle.
One thing catches my eye about your groups, 2 of 3 are consistently high right, the third follows the pattern too just a little differently. I wouldn't be surprised if your barrel is doing some walking as it warms up and internal stresses make it act differently, 7 Mag is burning a lot of powder and makes a good deal of heat. Odds are if it's barrel walking it'll go high, too, as the barrel is most insulated on the bottom from the fore end and will expand most there (doesn't take much). It's not for sure until you shoot another rifle beside it immediately after shooting a group where it does what's pictured.
I have one custom rifle that after the barrel was fluted started acting the same, soon as it warmed up the POI would shift as much as a couple inches. First things first see what your other rifles do on the same day.
One thing catches my eye about your groups, 2 of 3 are consistently high right, the third follows the pattern too just a little differently. I wouldn't be surprised if your barrel is doing some walking as it warms up and internal stresses make it act differently, 7 Mag is burning a lot of powder and makes a good deal of heat. Odds are if it's barrel walking it'll go high, too, as the barrel is most insulated on the bottom from the fore end and will expand most there (doesn't take much). It's not for sure until you shoot another rifle beside it immediately after shooting a group where it does what's pictured.
I have one custom rifle that after the barrel was fluted started acting the same, soon as it warmed up the POI would shift as much as a couple inches. First things first see what your other rifles do on the same day.
Throttle_monkey1
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Good point Ardent. The pics are a bit misleading in that I should have oriented them the way they were shot. The red one should be rotated 90 degrees left to show the way it was shot.
My 6.5x55 t3 doesn't do it, but I haven't shot anything with more recoil than 308 for tiny groups off the bench. 7mm doesn't have much recoil and it doesn't really bother me in the traditional sense when shooting but I did notice that by the end of the 60 rounds I was pretty fatigued from concentrating and shooting compared to shooting groups with my 6.5.
Next time I head out I'll bring the 6.5 and rotate between the rifles. I'll also check the barrel when warm to make sure it's still floating and not contacting anything. I'll also do one group with each shot coming from a cold barrel. I'll use an ice pack from a first aid kit on it if I have to.
My 6.5x55 t3 doesn't do it, but I haven't shot anything with more recoil than 308 for tiny groups off the bench. 7mm doesn't have much recoil and it doesn't really bother me in the traditional sense when shooting but I did notice that by the end of the 60 rounds I was pretty fatigued from concentrating and shooting compared to shooting groups with my 6.5.
Next time I head out I'll bring the 6.5 and rotate between the rifles. I'll also check the barrel when warm to make sure it's still floating and not contacting anything. I'll also do one group with each shot coming from a cold barrel. I'll use an ice pack from a first aid kit on it if I have to.
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Icing it could make it wonky too, I'd just try to keep the temp consistent, like if you're shooting five groups leave one target up that always gets the first shot. You don't feel much of the heat on the outside of a barrel, even though it can seem damn hot it's the bore and especially throat that get smoking hot and that heat conducts out slowly. The outside will always seem moderate because heat's lost at the same time it's conducted out of the bore. A 7mm is one of the warmer cartridges for barrels too, for sure. Will be interesting to see what you find.
RememberTheSomme
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nova Scotia
You have heat stringing no doubt. I call it the "BLR Syndrome" Identical twins with a distant third cousin.
You have an accurate hunting rifle with a great long range knock down ability based on your bullet weight/type and your MV and the first two shots will do the trick out to 800 meters on Deer sized animals
. So it's not a sniping rifle meant for long engagements at MOA that's for sure, but who cares it is an accurate hunting rifle with a deadly payload.
If you don't want to spend time on bedding ,free floating, pressure points etc to try and bring that distant cousin into the inner circle or can't fix it, I'd go with the load you have, and find out where she's prints the first round everytime from the way the barrel will be fielded, that is cold/clean, cold/fouled etc etc . Here's where I'd want my first morning round to fly, the rest are just for comfort after that.
I always remember a Club member back in the early eighties with his M70FWT in .308Win. Every week up to Deer season in the early fall he would bring that rifle and fire just one round checking his cold barrel zero, then put it back in the case and continue the night with whatever we were doing.
Sadly, a lot of hunter's put a zeroed rifle away after a frustrating 60 round for what ever reason string in early September, and wonder why they gut shot a deer broadside at 300 yards with their tack driver that was only off by 8 inches or more that cold November morning on that one and only round of the season.
You have an accurate hunting rifle with a great long range knock down ability based on your bullet weight/type and your MV and the first two shots will do the trick out to 800 meters on Deer sized animals
. So it's not a sniping rifle meant for long engagements at MOA that's for sure, but who cares it is an accurate hunting rifle with a deadly payload.If you don't want to spend time on bedding ,free floating, pressure points etc to try and bring that distant cousin into the inner circle or can't fix it, I'd go with the load you have, and find out where she's prints the first round everytime from the way the barrel will be fielded, that is cold/clean, cold/fouled etc etc . Here's where I'd want my first morning round to fly, the rest are just for comfort after that.
I always remember a Club member back in the early eighties with his M70FWT in .308Win. Every week up to Deer season in the early fall he would bring that rifle and fire just one round checking his cold barrel zero, then put it back in the case and continue the night with whatever we were doing.
Sadly, a lot of hunter's put a zeroed rifle away after a frustrating 60 round for what ever reason string in early September, and wonder why they gut shot a deer broadside at 300 yards with their tack driver that was only off by 8 inches or more that cold November morning on that one and only round of the season.
Throttle_monkey1
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Haven't had someone give it a go yet.
I'll let someone else have a go with it after I do my cold bore testing.
Somme- you're right, two rounds is plenty for hunting, this is just frustrating for me. Like the other guy said on page 1 how it happens to him and drives him nuts. Same with me
I'll let someone else have a go with it after I do my cold bore testing.
Somme- you're right, two rounds is plenty for hunting, this is just frustrating for me. Like the other guy said on page 1 how it happens to him and drives him nuts. Same with me
nowarningshot
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I always take a 22 along sighting in. Shoot a shot....a mag of 22....shot. Anything to slow me down to avoid stringing.
I can see that almost anything that could have been the issue has been done. This is a real stumper. The thing that even makes me eliminate hot barrel stringing is that the 4th shot is back with the first two.
A lot of good suggestions....i am going to go with a real "flier". Try backing off about 2grains and work up in .3gr 3 shot increments. Maybe a happy spot is sub 3000 ft/sec. Dont have a lot of faith that it would work, but most of the probables have been eliminated or suggested.
I can see that almost anything that could have been the issue has been done. This is a real stumper. The thing that even makes me eliminate hot barrel stringing is that the 4th shot is back with the first two.
A lot of good suggestions....i am going to go with a real "flier". Try backing off about 2grains and work up in .3gr 3 shot increments. Maybe a happy spot is sub 3000 ft/sec. Dont have a lot of faith that it would work, but most of the probables have been eliminated or suggested.
This is classic mauser; action and barrel bedding are the culprit, but I'd be just fine with what you are doing. You've got redline loads and the worst comes out when you do this. If those groups are your worst then go hunting.
If you really have to, the action needs to be bedded again along with a good 1" of the barrel and all tension at the recoil luv action screw and rear action screw relieved. Make sure none of the magazine box is contacting the stock front and back. I've seen these exact groups with Mauser, Sako and Rugers where the action screw comes into the recoil lug.
If you really have to, the action needs to be bedded again along with a good 1" of the barrel and all tension at the recoil luv action screw and rear action screw relieved. Make sure none of the magazine box is contacting the stock front and back. I've seen these exact groups with Mauser, Sako and Rugers where the action screw comes into the recoil lug.
