Frustrated....need help from the pros
- Thread starter Throttle_monkey1
- Start date
First - up for consideration is if the loads were some how mixed up.
Second - how close is the free float. It ought to have enough room for a business card to be slid between the barrel and stock.
Third - check rings and scope. Did you change the POA at anytime during test loads.
Forth - verify that the scope isn't loosing the POA.
Fifth - Try factory ammo to establish whatever group it may produce.
Second - how close is the free float. It ought to have enough room for a business card to be slid between the barrel and stock.
Third - check rings and scope. Did you change the POA at anytime during test loads.
Forth - verify that the scope isn't loosing the POA.
Fifth - Try factory ammo to establish whatever group it may produce.
If the gun can't give a decent 3 round group shot one after another its not worth owning as a hunting rifle.
Free float the barrel, bed the action, work up the loads, make sure it isn't a scope problem or mounts....if its still a POS, 2 options, gunsmith or dump it.
What scope/rings are you using. I had very similar results with a Ruger 7mm and after 2 trips to a smith and dozens of frustrating range trips I realized my scope was internally hooped. (Bushnell 3200 3-9x40) I had that scope on my .375Ruger when I first got it. Upgraded to a Leupold VXIII 2.5-8x36 on the Ruger .375 and moved the Bushnell to the 7mm.
The internal adjustments had ceased to track correctly and it took me about $450 in gunsmith fees and wasted ammo to realize-------DOH!!!!
Just a thought among all the listed suspects......
The internal adjustments had ceased to track correctly and it took me about $450 in gunsmith fees and wasted ammo to realize-------DOH!!!!
Just a thought among all the listed suspects......
Could be scope. I'd try sorting brass and keeping weights as close as possible. Also be really diligent with powder weights as well. weigh each load by hand to get them within .1 grain. Make sure all C.O.A.L's are the same as well. This consistency eliminated the flyer as long as I didn't shoot to frequently and heat the barrel to much.
just having some fun
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I have not reloaded the 7mm in about 15 years
My load was using IMR 4350 and 150g spbt (i used mixed brass and weight sorted them)
I think you are too fast my load ran 3000-3050 and put all 10 shots in to a nice tight group
You are on the top end of velocity and RPM and and I think if you slowed it down a bit groups would tighten up
My load was using IMR 4350 and 150g spbt (i used mixed brass and weight sorted them)
I think you are too fast my load ran 3000-3050 and put all 10 shots in to a nice tight group
You are on the top end of velocity and RPM and and I think if you slowed it down a bit groups would tighten up
I second that suggestion from JHSF. It is VERY rare that a max (or almost max) load is the most accurate in the minimum/maximum charge spectrum. I'd start back over and go in half grain increments from lowest to what you are loading currently. Also, try adjusting your overall length as the jump to the rifling is a science in itself. If you are very near the rifling, try a few thousands shorter. There is an "accuracy node" somewhere between minimum and maximum loads. Once you find the most accurate powder charge, start adjusting your OAL until you cannot get closer. If none of this helps you , it may be time to try another kind of bullet. Not every gun shoots "bullet x" well. You may just have a bullet that your barrel doesn't like no matter the powder charge or OAL.
Throttle_monkey1
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I agree with what you're saying. When I first made some reloads I started really low and the first group was around moa and ~2990 fps. Then the groups opened up as I increased in 0.5 grain charge weights and then near the top of the load range they tightened up again at another node.
So I loaded a bunch up within 1.1 grain of max in 0.3 grain increments to fine tune and this is where I ran into this issue. I know that accuracy comes before velocity but if I have to run a 150 grain pill at 2990 there is no point in having a 7 mag and burning all that powder.
I did some reading last night on OCW or "optimal charge weight" and found it interesting. Will try that technique.
http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/
So I loaded a bunch up within 1.1 grain of max in 0.3 grain increments to fine tune and this is where I ran into this issue. I know that accuracy comes before velocity but if I have to run a 150 grain pill at 2990 there is no point in having a 7 mag and burning all that powder.
I did some reading last night on OCW or "optimal charge weight" and found it interesting. Will try that technique.
http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/
I too did a bunch of reading on optimal charge weight. I now test all my loads the way Hoytcanon suggested in post #34. I shoot my groups "round robin", if I'm trying 5 loads I have five targets(print them at home cheap). I label the targets with a sharpie and shoot one shot of each load at the appropriate target, then proceed to round two, then round three and so on. This really gives you confidence that the groups you get are true representation.
I load and shoot 7-08, 30-30, and 350 RemMag. All these cartridges burn less than your 7mag and I find that 2 slow shots are fine but 3 shots is giving me symptoms of a warm barrel.
I've tried various ways of finding a load with different ladder tests, OCW etc but I have settled on the method Jerry outlines in the tech section of his Mystic Precision website it has saved me a lot of powder and bullets.
Do you have a chronograph? It could indicate if the flier is from your load.
One more technique is to use the exact same style target all the time. This makes it easy to lay them over each other(the ones printed at home are fairly transparent) I just take a blank one and start overlaying my groups and using it like a stencil draw the shots all onto one target(assuming they're the same load). Its a good way to find your aggregate group size.
Do you weigh your brass? I'm not talking about sorting by tenths of a grain, just weighing them to make sure there are no abnormalities. Out of 50 new cases I found 2 or 3 that were way off like 5 grains. If you get a few of those mixed in they can really ruin your group.
Be methodical and you'll find it. The suggestion to shoot your 6.5 is a good one. You are capable of good shooting and you know it or you wouldn't be frustrated. You'll figure it out
Good Luck,
Willy
I load and shoot 7-08, 30-30, and 350 RemMag. All these cartridges burn less than your 7mag and I find that 2 slow shots are fine but 3 shots is giving me symptoms of a warm barrel.
I've tried various ways of finding a load with different ladder tests, OCW etc but I have settled on the method Jerry outlines in the tech section of his Mystic Precision website it has saved me a lot of powder and bullets.
Do you have a chronograph? It could indicate if the flier is from your load.
One more technique is to use the exact same style target all the time. This makes it easy to lay them over each other(the ones printed at home are fairly transparent) I just take a blank one and start overlaying my groups and using it like a stencil draw the shots all onto one target(assuming they're the same load). Its a good way to find your aggregate group size.
Do you weigh your brass? I'm not talking about sorting by tenths of a grain, just weighing them to make sure there are no abnormalities. Out of 50 new cases I found 2 or 3 that were way off like 5 grains. If you get a few of those mixed in they can really ruin your group.
Be methodical and you'll find it. The suggestion to shoot your 6.5 is a good one. You are capable of good shooting and you know it or you wouldn't be frustrated. You'll figure it out
Good Luck,
Willy
Yea it's always good to check all the important factors that contribute to reliable performance in one's shooting. On a two or three occasions I've found slop in the rings or a faulty scope can become a problem. I don't recall having issues with bases - but it could happen.
I suggested a business card for free float because a sheet of paper can give the impression that there is ample free float. however, when hunting in the rain that free float can disappear and some binding can happen. Resulting in some movement in accuracy. So by providing a (marginal) bit of extra clearance - one can rest assured that free float is not the problem.
I suggested a business card for free float because a sheet of paper can give the impression that there is ample free float. however, when hunting in the rain that free float can disappear and some binding can happen. Resulting in some movement in accuracy. So by providing a (marginal) bit of extra clearance - one can rest assured that free float is not the problem.
Throttle_monkey1
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Great posts guys, I appreciate it. I do have a chrony and there were no shots that had huge variations in velocity in the group.
After reading the OCW thing, the three loads below the highest load I loaded all printed in an almost identical POI, and the highest load climbed up, so I'm going to work within those three.
I'm also going to read Jerry's website. I haven't weighed my brass, but I'm going to start.
After reading the OCW thing, the three loads below the highest load I loaded all printed in an almost identical POI, and the highest load climbed up, so I'm going to work within those three.
I'm also going to read Jerry's website. I haven't weighed my brass, but I'm going to start.
shortaction
CGN Regular
- Location
- Manitoulin Island, Ontario
I would think it is warm barrel stringing as many others have suggested. One other thing to be careful of is don't over tighten the stock bolts. I've had some rifles that where really particular with the amount of torque causing stress and then as soon as the rifle warmed up it would throw a flier.
A lot of good advice and suggestions here and nothing I can add, except to say if the purpose of this rifle is for hunting then the first two shots are as good as it gets and the third for all practical purposes for hunting isn't much different. I have a Kimber 8400 that does this two and one pattern. Gave up trying to figure it out. Shot many deer and a nice moose with the rifle without issue. My suggestion is to load up some rounds and go hunting.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
The only thing I might point out is that double groups, which is essentially what's happening here, are indicative of a bedding issue. You might find that opening up the barrel channel solved the problem, but for the piece of mind, I'd glass bed that rifle anyway. If you opened the barrel channel and got rid of pressure points, that are intended to dampen barrel vibration, although I'm not sure if the Swedes went in for that sort of thing, the overall group size might suffer, although the fliers will be less evident. If you glass bed the rifle and the groups aren't pleasing, experiment with shims in the barrel channel near the forend tip.
The guns I have had that did that were all very light and a bit difficult to shoot form a bench, a Kimber, a M70 carbine and a browning Abolt in 300wsm.
In the Carbine, relieving the stock channel solved the problem, with the other two it was me.
When I would do as others stated shoot one shot at a time, shoot something else for a bit then the 2nd and 3rd etc groups were always fine.
It's a bit frustrating, but for a hunting gun, where the 3rd round is is irrelevant. If your first two are almost touching, sounds like a great hunting rig.
In the Carbine, relieving the stock channel solved the problem, with the other two it was me.
When I would do as others stated shoot one shot at a time, shoot something else for a bit then the 2nd and 3rd etc groups were always fine.
It's a bit frustrating, but for a hunting gun, where the 3rd round is is irrelevant. If your first two are almost touching, sounds like a great hunting rig.
blasted_saber
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- A blue part of Ontario
I think you're being a tad anal if this a hunting rifle.
If for whatever reason you havent killed or mortally wounded the animal with those first two, the third is likely still going to hit it. They arent that bad for a hunting rifle.
If for whatever reason you havent killed or mortally wounded the animal with those first two, the third is likely still going to hit it. They arent that bad for a hunting rifle.
Throttle_monkey1
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Blasted saber- you're right but I can't help it. That flier bugs me!
I managed to sneak out to the range with a whopping 10 rounds loaded up. Brought a beater semi auto to plink with. Was going to do two 5 shot groups but ended up doing three 3 shot groups because I wanted more groups. It was windy and I'm pretty sure opening the barrel channel helped and I'm also positive that most of this is me. The first "group" was more like a pattern.
I really had to concentrate on my trigger pull and breathing so I took my time. I did a lot of plinking between shots for the second and third groups. The first group was on a clean barrel so the first couple could be counted as fouling shots. Here's number two and three. I'm happy with it, and am also happy that the rifle is acting as it should and that I'm the weak link. The third group is three shots although it's hard to tell.
I managed to sneak out to the range with a whopping 10 rounds loaded up. Brought a beater semi auto to plink with. Was going to do two 5 shot groups but ended up doing three 3 shot groups because I wanted more groups. It was windy and I'm pretty sure opening the barrel channel helped and I'm also positive that most of this is me. The first "group" was more like a pattern.
I really had to concentrate on my trigger pull and breathing so I took my time. I did a lot of plinking between shots for the second and third groups. The first group was on a clean barrel so the first couple could be counted as fouling shots. Here's number two and three. I'm happy with it, and am also happy that the rifle is acting as it should and that I'm the weak link. The third group is three shots although it's hard to tell.
