Full-auto redux

cyclone

cyclone

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A while ago, I asked about (frequency of) military use of fully-automatic fire from modern-issue rifles:



https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/1856124-Automatic-usage?highlight=ian



Given the various responses there (concern about ammunition consumption, largely relegating fully-automatic fire to belt-fed firearms), was there a feeling that the select-fire option should be deleted from modern military rifles? If not, why not?


I'm thinking that posing this question this way might garner some significant insight; thanks in advance, as always.
 
The main purpose for the automatic function is to provide supressive fire. It has not been used a lot lately by reg force since we pulled out of Kandahar in 2011, but it has its use in a combat zone.

See it as a fire extinguisher: you have one but may never use it. Same goes for the automatic function on our rifles.

So NO, we shouldnt get rid of this option on our tools
 
DT741 said:
The main purpose for the automatic function is to provide supressive fire. It has not been used a lot lately by reg force since we pulled out of Kandahar in 2011, but it has its use in a combat zone.

See it as a fire extinguisher: you have one but may never use it. Same goes for the automatic function on our rifles.

So NO, we shouldnt get rid of this option on our tools
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This. If you don't have it, sure as #### there'll be a time when you want it.

Lessons are always learned and being applied from the last conflict. Whether that's LBE or what you're carrying in it, or the stuff you want on a rifle. Just because the last conflict has been in open spaces with long distance (relatively) doesn't mean that the next combat zone won't be a densely populated urban zone. If you only train to refight the last war, you'll lose the next one.
 
In some way I’d even see a full auto switch option on an M4 as hinderence. In the heat of battle I’d not want to push the switch too far and have a “oops” moment under stress. Should be something you can deactivate with field strip.
 
PinaKaleada said:
In some way I’d even see a full auto switch option on an M4 as hinderence. In the heat of battle I’d not want to push the switch too far and have a “oops” moment under stress. Should be something you can deactivate with field strip.
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In 16 years I've never seen it happen... It doesnt go in "auto" by "accident". You actually need to put some effort/motion to make it happen.
 
PinaKaleada said:
In some way I’d even see a full auto switch option on an M4 as hinderence. In the heat of battle I’d not want to push the switch too far and have a “oops” moment under stress. Should be something you can deactivate with field strip.
Click to expand...

That's what the Soviets thought. They didn't remove the function from the AK, or try and train it out of soldiers. They just engineered around it.

Why would you deactivate it with a field strip? "Hold on boys, I know we're getting a bit overwhelmed here, but i'm just going to do a spot of gun plumbing as i thought we were just going for a bimble today not a firefight".
 
DT741 said:
The main purpose for the automatic function is to provide supressive fire. It has not been used a lot lately by reg force since we pulled out of Kandahar in 2011, but it has its use in a combat zone.

See it as a fire extinguisher: you have one but may never use it. Same goes for the automatic function on our rifles.

So NO, we shouldnt get rid of this option on our tools
Click to expand...

This is what I was taught...way back when
 
DT741 said:
In 16 years I've never seen it happen
Click to expand...

Happened to me. I was doing the PWT3 and I accidentally nudged the stubby little ambi selector on the C7A2 (it doesnt have to go all the way!) with the back of my hand just enough to fire a 2-round burst. Thankfully I came off the trigger fast enough and was in a rock solid prone position that it wasn't immediately clear what had happened to the WO standing a few meters away. (He gave me a glare that said "did he just f--- up?" but wasn't sure enough to give me a reaming)

Once I knew it could happen I was careful to keep from doing it again.

That said, you should absolutely have it for the few times you need it, even if it's 1% of the time. Having to strip the rifle to activate it is nuts - if you need it, you probably need it NOW.
 
DT741 said:
In 16 years I've never seen it happen... It doesnt go in "auto" by "accident". You actually need to put some effort/motion to make it happen.
Click to expand...

Ive seen it happen 4 times. Once in combat, three times in basic training. In all cases someone meant to put it on R and flicked the switch too hard, and/or usually because of gloves, couldnt feel the correct position.

For whats it worth, the three instances from Basic were also Negligent Discharges where some sleep deprived Candidate Under Normal Training was fondling the safety and trigger without a proper fire control order.

cyclone said:
.

A while ago, I asked about (frequency of) military use of fully-automatic fire from modern-issue rifles:



https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/1856124-Automatic-usage?highlight=ian



Given the various responses there (concern about ammunition consumption, largely relegating fully-automatic fire to belt-fed firearms), was there a feeling that the select-fire option should be deleted from modern military rifles? If not, why not?


I'm thinking that posing this question this way might garner some significant insight; thanks in advance, as always.
Click to expand...
No, the option should not be taken away. It is a legitimate tool in the tool box. Think of full auto as either the panic button, or the emergency button. Currently we train soldiers that the only legitimate use for a full auto is counter ambush drills where you have a highly likelihood of imminent death and your only hope of survival is to break the ambush with as much return fire as you can as quickly as possible.

It is a tool with low cost, less cost to the soldier than a bayonet, both in terms of weight and dollars and is far more likely to be put to good use.

There is an argument to be made that the select fire safety switch should be redesigned so that SAFE is in the middle, and you go forward for Repetition, and backward for AUTO. This would eliminate any possible errors based on tactile manipulation of the switch.
 
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PinaKaleada said:
In some way I’d even see a full auto switch option on an M4 as hinderence. In the heat of battle I’d not want to push the switch too far and have a “oops” moment under stress. Should be something you can deactivate with field strip.
Click to expand...

Letting soldiers manipulate their firearms to be less than fully capable is right up there with letting them decide if they can reduce their vehicle top speed or letting them decide if they can just leave heavy mission essential kit at home. Ie, never going to happen, nor should it.

Trust me, in the heat of battle accidentally firing a few extra rounds is not a grave cause for concern. Assuming you are a half decent marksman your first shotnshould be on target and the remainder will be accuratish. Your biggest worry would be losing the respect of your peers who think you dont know how to handle your rifle.

There were a lot of headquarters types at Kandahar airfield that were so terrified of NDs that they deactivated the whole fiream via field strip and removal of the firing pin. If you dont believe me file an ATIP for all the lost and damaged reports for missing firing pins.

Guys whose pistols were rusted shut due to neglect claimed they lost their firing pin while cleaning it... One lad actually got charged because he forgot to bring his firing pin to the range when he was ordered to rezero after HLTA.

https://images.app.goo.gl/Bt16GCwTFKj62StX8
 
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I will knock on wood and buy a lottery ticket since a lot of you guys have seen people "accidentally" flicking the fun switch on. I can easily see the ambidextrious fire selector snagging on stuff as I got all the left shooter stuff removed from my rifle because I kept dumping my magazine...

Back on topic, automatic fire capacity is usefull on combat rifles even if its not used often
 
DT741 said:
I will knock on wood and buy a lottery ticket since a lot of you guys have seen people "accidentally" flicking the fun switch on. I can easily see the ambidextrious fire selector snagging on stuff as I got all the left shooter stuff removed from my rifle because I kept dumping my magazine...

Back on topic, automatic fire capacity is usefull on combat rifles even if its not used often
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If you want to gaslight yourself just go teach a few BMOQLs, or whatever they are calling it now.
 
Sorry but you young pups lost me for a bit, BMOQ was called CFOCS (Officer Candidate School) in my time. Yes, it was scary, it is supposed to be. Lots of pressure to perform, very little sleep, and the BS piled high enough that they made you rope up to climb over it. We did not have select fire on the FNC1. I have read that the select fire 3 round was chosen after much testing. The idea was that the 3 round burst gave the best chance of a hit (over 80%), any more was just a waste of ammo.

Damn! Am I suddenly that old now? It's bad enough that a plane I once piloted is now in the NA museum in Ottawa.
 
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