Full length case resizing vs neck resizing?

[wkmiller]

Good morning all

It is my understanding that fire formed brass is more accurate than full length resized brass because it fits the receiver more precisely. I am new to the reloading thing as you can tell... I have a Dillon 550B press but all I can find for dies for it are full length sets. I currently shoot a .308 and .223.

1. Will other press manufacturer dies fit the Dillon press?

2. Is neck sizing a better choice than full length resizing?

3. What brand of dies would you recommend I buy?

Thanks

 

[tiriaq]

What are you doing with our .223 and .308 reloads? What type of rifles?

 

[Andy]

I'm not the only one to find that neck-sized and partial full-length sized brass lasts longer, but that it is not more accurate that full-length sized brass.

 

[Brianma65]

I'm in the same boat, your going to get a lot of support for both ways. I believe you can neck size with your FL dies, it's all in the set up. The thing with Neck sizing is you will need to bump the shoulder back every few reloads. And FL sizing only and the shoulder gets pushed back to far. Im now thinking about the lee Collet die. Actually there's a couple of options, just have to figure out the best one. check out my thread on incipient head case separation. You should find what your looking for there as there's a lot of excellent advice there.

 

[galamb]

I had the same questions when I started reloading.

The advice that has stuck with me (and what I follow) is:

I neck size rounds that I'm going to range shoot - usually in significant quantities.

I full length size and crimp any rounds I'm going to hunt with - I don't want a bullet falling out etc in a hunting situation (and am generally only loading 20 or so rounds once I have my recipe figured out).

I will never be a good enough shot myself to tell any difference between a neck sized and full length sized, so for me that is not a consideration. And while neck sizing might be quicker (saves some time when loading range rounds), it doesn't take long to full size 10 or 20 hunting rounds - so again, for me, no real time hindrance for the rounds I do FL size.

An ultimate die kit from Lee is cheap enough and gives you both options, plus the bullet crimp die - try it out and see what you like better. If you can't see any difference then buy a FL set of better quality and use that if you both plink and hunt with the same rounds.

 

[Brianma65]

I have a Tikka T3 Varminter .7MM on the way. I'm planning on using this for hunting and target shooting. If this gun is capable of 1/2 target loads , I would also like it to be capable of 1/2 inch MOA hunting loads. From what I've read so far , is that you will need to bump the shoulder for this. So therefore FL and NS is not quite good enough???

 

[frigpig]

Redding compitition shell holders + either FL die or a Redding body die + Lee collet die = most accurate ammo when loaded correctly IMO.

If a shoulder is bumped correctly to max chamber length then it will most likely need bumping every reload. The compitition shell holders come as tall as + 0.010 wich is more than enough for most chambers.

 

[LUTNIT]

Bumping the shoulder is a form of incomplete full length sizing. It's just adjusting the FL sizing die so the end product is better suited to your specific rifle since chambers and even sizing dies vary.
1/2 MoA with neck sized cases isn't too difficult. If you're aiming for 1/3 to 1/4 MoA ammo you're getting into less common territory.

Some competition shooters swear by the "rat turd in a violin case" philosophy of case sizing. That is the case should be supported by the bolt face on its base and the barrel throat on the bullet and nothing else. This allows the bullet to centre itself in the bore without the brass pushing it one way or another.

Other competition shooters call this hogwash and swear by the case being supported by the case head and shoulder without the body of the case touching which can allow the bullet to free-float and not touch the throat (usually loaded .005" to .020" off the lands).

Yet other competition shooters say those are both garbage and swear by fire-formed and neck sized cases saying it produces the most accurate ammo. These tend to be in the minority mind you.

Personally, I can shoot 3/4 MoA on a bad day, 1/2 MoA on a good day, and a touch under 1/2 MoA on an excellent day (let's call it 7/16 MoA). I'm not a competition shooter and these aren't competition-worthy groups. I neck size my cases because I'm lazy and don't want to wash the lube off after using a FL sizing die (whether FL sizing or shoulder bumping). I also want to extend my case life because I'm cheap and honestly, with these "skilled amateur" level groups, I doubt I would notice a difference between the three loading methods listed above.

At the end of the day in the majority of cases, the shooters skill level has more to do with it than how the cases are sized. If you were a high level competition shooter, how you size the cases likely means the difference between a gold medal and a participation ribbon, but unless you're at that level, don't think about it so much and just shoot more.

 

[Brianma65]

Lutnit, if using a NS die only , you will have to bump the shoulder back eventually right? And can you bump the shoulder by using only the FL die? I didn't mean to imply that I could shoot 1/2 groups but meant to imply that I want my hunting loads to be as accurate as my target loads.

 

[MikeinCalgary]

I just full length size, anneal every 5 rounds, and use Lapua brass. I am getting about 10-18 reloads and have a single shot, 6mm Dasher which gets about 1/4 MOA right now with my barrel. I have heard that neck sizing is more accurate and easier on the brass but have never tried it. I use Redding type s dies with adjustable bushings, and a micrometer type seater die.

 

[LUTNIT]

Lutnit, if using a NS die only , you will have to bump the shoulder back eventually right? And can you bump the shoulder by using only the FL die? I didn't mean to imply that I could shoot 1/2 groups but meant to imply that I want my hunting loads to be as accurate as my target loads.

Sorry, misunderstood. You are correct. After a few firing with neck sizing only the rounds will become difficult to chamber and sometimes near impossible to close the bolt on. At that point you need to push the shoulders back. You could do a regular FL sizing with the instructions that come with the dies but I prefer to just bump it back the minimum to make chambering easy again.

Getting hunting loads to shoot as well as target loads depends on the bullet used. I use HPBT's for target which aren't really suitable for hunting (they tend to act like either a FMJ or frangible depending on velocity). A quality plastic tipped hunting bullet should be able to give similar performance to a tipped or HP target bullet at conventional ranges.

Accuracy and point of impact can change as hunting is often done in colder weather than summer target shooting. Different powders are effected differently by the temperature so it's a trial-and-error process. Honestly my concern for hunting loads is that I can shoot the vitals of a deer at a known range. Even a consistent accuracy of 2 MoA over different distances from a given shooter/rifle/cartridge can hit the 8-10" vitals of a deer at 400-500yds. Unless you're shooting rabbits at 1000yds you don't really need 1/2 MoA. It's a good goal to have the most accurate ammo you can load of course, I'm not discrediting that, but at common hunting distances (10-100yds in my area) there wont be a significant difference.

Saying that, I can usually get the cheapest exposed-lead soft-point hunting bullets to shoot at worst 1" at 100yds which is all I personally need. Where you hunt determines the accuracy you need. With Hornady SST's (a tipped hunting bullet) I've got some loads that'll do 1" at 200yds if I do my part.

This is all with neck sized only cases. I make sure the cases chamber easily before using them for anything critical. If the case chambers and bolt closes smoothly, it'll work as reliable hunting ammo. There isn't a need to totally FL resize all the time for hunting ammo.

At the end of the day, FL sized, bumped, or neck sized cases are all able to achieve 1/2 MoA in a rifle capable of the same. Just keep things consistent.
NS'ing will require a shoulder bump now and then.

 

[bigedp51]

wkmiller

The only rat turds here are the rat finks that post before I get a chance and their initials are (LUTNIT) and should be shot with a dull bullet.

Please read below and note that Kevin Thomas worked at the Sierra ballistic test laboratory and now shoots for "Team Lapua USA".

There is a simple solution to your question, buy a full length die and a neck sizing die and see what you like best.

I neck size my milsurp rifles because they have larger chambers and the commercial/civilian dies are smaller and can over work the brass.

On my newer scoped off the shelf factory rifles with standard SAAMI chambers I full length all theses cases. And this is for the same reasons that our rat fink above listed in his posting.

Please note I do not hate LUTNIT, but I do hate posting after him. (the rat bastard, long haired commie pinko pervert "expletive deleted" weasel)

And LUTNIT I do not shoot in competition and I full length resize with minimum shoulder bump because it has no adverse effects on case life and "improves" accuracy.

 

[Mystic Precision]

Good morning all

It is my understanding that fire formed brass is more accurate than full length resized brass because it fits the receiver more precisely. I am new to the reloading thing as you can tell... I have a Dillon 550B press but all I can find for dies for it are full length sets. I currently shoot a .308 and .223.

1. Will other press manufacturer dies fit the Dillon press?

2. Is neck sizing a better choice than full length resizing?

3. What brand of dies would you recommend I buy?

Thanks

You are correct in your assumption.. but which die or dies to use depends on your rifle - type and chamber, and application.

There is not good or bad.. what you need to achieve is a proper safe and reliable FIT of brass to chamber. Several posts have been on this topic lately and there seems to be this general misunderstanding that it is this OR that. Sometimes it is this AND that.

So figure what you want to do AND then worry about the tools that will get the job done.

We can debate forks for the next week but what good is that if you wanted to drink some soup?

more info needed.

Jerry

 

[Brianma65]

wkmiller

The only rat turds here are the rat finks that post before I get a chance and their initials are (LUTNIT) and should be shot with a dull bullet.

Please read below and note that Kevin Thomas worked at the Sierra ballistic test laboratory and now shoots for "Team Lapua USA".

There is a simple solution to your question, buy a full length die and a neck sizing die and see what you like best.

I neck size my milsurp rifles because they have larger chambers and the commercial/civilian dies are smaller and can over work the brass.

On my newer scoped off the shelf factory rifles with standard SAAMI chambers I full length all theses cases. And this is for the same reasons that our rat fink above listed in his posting.

Please note I do not hate LUTNIT, but I do hate posting after him. (the rat bastard, long haired commie pinko pervert "expletive deleted" weasel)

Could you explain how your resizing process is done in regards to how you set your dies up for each reload of the same piece of brass? Assuming you use the Cam over for the once fired brass.

 

[bigedp51]

Could you explain how your resizing process is done in regards to how you set your dies up for each reload of the same piece of brass? Assuming you use the Cam over for the once fired brass.

First remember your dies are threaded and can move up and down, also remember we live in a plus and minus manufacturing world and chambers and dies do vary in diameter and length.

Below is a exaggerated illustration of full length resizing, and you need to look at the blue, red and green dotted lines. If you set your dies up per the instructions you will push the case shoulder back to the green dotted line and can over resize the case. The instructions that come with your dies make sure the case will fit in any chamber and push the shoulder back a good bit. All you need to do is resize the case and push/bump the case shoulder back .001 to .002 in a bolt action rifle and .003 to .006 in a semiauto rifles.

Example below is a fired case from my AR15 rifle and the fired case measures 1.4675

Below the same case after full length resizing with .003 shoulder bump.

Below on the right is a standard RCBS shell holder, and if I had used this shell holder the case shoulder would have been bumped back .007 and more than needed. The shell holder on the left is a Redding competition shell holder and the deck height of the shell holder where the base of the case rests is .004 "LOWER". Meaning the sholder pushes the case .004 less into the sizing die and reduces shoulder bump by .004 and the press still cams over.

Below each of the five Redding competition shell holders are .002 taller than the next and come in plus .002. .004, .006, .008 and .010. This allows for a custom fit of the case in your chamber and not over resize the case.

You can use feeler gauges to adjust the die height the same way, "BUT" this will not eliminate slop in the press because of the "air gap" between the bottom of the die and the top of the shell holder.

Bottom line, you can adjust your dies up and down for a custom fit for "your" chamber. And as long as these cases are going to be shot in just your rifle there is no reason to push the case shoulder back the maximum amount the sizing die can.

 

[looch]

I hunt with my reloads and time at the bench is spent finding loads with which to hunt and/or sighting in. Therefore, I choose to use FL dies and I set them up to bump the shoulder back just enough to ensure my rounds chamber. This improves case life as well as preventing a case head separation due to either an over-sized chamber or a die or shell plate which - set to the generic recommendations - may set the shoulder back too far.

 

[Gunneegoogoo]

Couple (few) thoughts:

FL vs Neck only is an ongoing raging debate, unlikely to be settled now

Does your hunting gun really need to be 1/2MOA?? The boiler room
Of a deer is at least 10" across, so with 1MOA you're OK out to 1000yds. If you're doing it "just cause you can", fair enough, I too love a good project.....

I only FL resize with my 6.5x47 and my .338LM and they are both well below .5MOA, and the 6.5 has done .117MOA.

I think a lot of you are selling yourselves short on your shooting abilities. Hunker down, set a stable base, breath correctly, gentle squeeze on the trigger, and I bet you can get little groups too....

My current die choice is Redding FL competition-S (bushing) with the TiN expander ball, and Forster ultra micrometer seater. Just my choice, not right or wrong.

One thing I've learned from yodave is that "not all shell holders are created equal"..... When I tried to bump my .338 brass a few weeks ago I found I couldn't get more than .002. I've since purchased Redding holders so we'll see if they're better than the RCBS ones I tried first....

How do the rest of you measure your bump back? I bought a comparator from Larry Willis and I quite like it. Am I right to be liking this thing?

-J.

 

[looch]

I drilled a hole in the side of a large nut.

 

[Brianma65]

I drilled a hole in the side of a large nut.

And did what with it .

 

[MikeinCalgary]

Couple (few) thoughts:

FL vs Neck only is an ongoing raging debate, unlikely to be settled now

Does your hunting gun really need to be 1/2MOA?? The boiler room
Of a deer is at least 10" across, so with 1MOA you're OK out to 1000yds. If you're doing it "just cause you can", fair enough, I too love a good project.....

I only FL resize with my 6.5x47 and my .338LM and they are both well below .5MOA, and the 6.5 has done .117MOA.

I think a lot of you are selling yourselves short on your shooting abilities. Hunker down, set a stable base, breath correctly, gentle squeeze on the trigger, and I bet you can get little groups too....

My current die choice is Redding FL competition-S (bushing) with the TiN expander ball, and Forster ultra micrometer seater. Just my choice, not right or wrong.

One thing I've learned from yodave is that "not all shell holders are created equal"..... When I tried to bump my .338 brass a few weeks ago I found I couldn't get more than .002. I've since purchased Redding holders so we'll see if they're better than the RCBS ones I tried first....

How do the rest of you measure your bump back? I bought a comparator from Larry Willis and I quite like it. Am I right to be liking this thing?

-J.

Exactly what I ended up using and same way I do it, except I bought the Hornady comparator and headspace set at the local store. I now spend more time on my useless wind reading skills and less time on load development.