Full power .45LC loads in a lever action?

Melnibonean

Melnibonean

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Sorry if this is in the wrong place, but didn't know where else to put it. Mods, please move it if it belongs elsewhere.

(and yes.....I did try the "search" function. Why do you think I'm posting my question here? :dancingbanana:)



Handloaded .45LC being driven to high velocities is a no-no in all replica SAA revolvers and their clones, except for the old Vanquero. However, is it safe to use them in modern replica lever actions, like say the Rossi or the Umbertis that can also be used for CAS?
 
Modern reproduction toggle-link actions can't hold that much more pressure than old toggle-link actions from my understanding.
Actions that use a dropping block to lock the action can handle significantly more pressure (most commonly available today are 1892's and 1894's).

Uberti offer the 1873 (a toggle-link design) in 44 mag which is a 36,000psi cartridge but I'd check with Uberti before loading 45LC up to those levels. A quick Google search shows a lot of CAS guys talking about it with trepidation. The 1860 and 1866 are only available in lower pressure cartridges so I wouldn't want to try uploading anything in those.

If you want to use it as a hunting rifle you could just buy a 44 mag rifle if you want that power level. You can always shoot 44 special or download 44 mag brass with 44 special data if the shorter special brass doesn't feed well. You could also get a 454 Casull rifle and do the same with 45LC as they are compatible in the same way.

I've heard many reports of people loading Marlin 1894's in 45LC to 44 magnum pressures. The bolt on my Marlin 1894 (44 mag) has "44/45" stamped on it.
 
Andy said:
In the M92 Rossi for sure. They run 454 Casull in them - a 60K psi round.
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LUTNIT said:
Modern reproduction toggle-link actions can't hold that much more pressure than old toggle-link actions from my understanding.
Actions that use a dropping block to lock the action can handle significantly more pressure (most commonly available today are 1892's and 1894's).

Uberti offer the 1873 (a toggle-link design) in 44 mag which is a 36,000psi cartridge but I'd check with Uberti before loading 45LC up to those levels. A quick Google search shows a lot of CAS guys talking about it with trepidation. The 1860 and 1866 are only available in lower pressure cartridges so I wouldn't want to try uploading anything in those.

If you want to use it as a hunting rifle you could just buy a 44 mag rifle if you want that power level. You can always shoot 44 special or download 44 mag brass with 44 special data if the shorter special brass doesn't feed well. You could also get a 454 Casull rifle and do the same with 45LC as they are compatible in the same way.

I've heard many reports of people loading Marlin 1894's in 45LC to 44 magnum pressures. The bolt on my Marlin 1894 (44 mag) has "44/45" stamped on it.
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Thanks guys.
 
My advise, from more than a few years of shooting & fixing pistol cal. lever guns...My own toggle action guns, regardless of vintage or make, will never see more than "cowboy action" level loads.

My or my wifes Win. 92 or Marlin 94 "sliding bolt" locking lever guns will get fed anything in a published manual (with the usual safety concerns regarding starting low & building up until pressure signs appear).

My statement about the toggle guns usually results in a "modern built" toggle gun shooter piping up with the statement that because of the "nowadays liability" the manuf. wouldn't chamber them to some caliber that wasn't safe. My reply to that is that there is no liability issue because the guns don't explode & injure the shooter(see the last paragraph). They are built of modern metals and European firearms manuf. rules mandate that they be "proof tested". They do pass the criteria of the proof test... the problem is that they break internal pieces rendering the gun unusable. The machining tolerances needed to be built into the guns for them to work as designed also allows for breakage or bending of pins and toggles or, more seriously, a deformation of the toggle buttress in the frame at higher cartridge pressures than the design was originally invented for. I've had guns in my shop that breakage happened with the first high pressure round so don't think you can "shoot only a few rounds" and get away with it...sometimes you can but sometimes you don't either.

The one exception I know of to this is a shooter at a stateside shoot that had the firing pin extension drove into his eyeball from a high pressure round in a toggle gun. He had "juiced" the loads to shoot long range gongs with a pistol cal. rifle. I wasn't there but a very good friend of mine was one of the fellows friends that took him to hospital to have the pin surgically removed. Not something I ever want to be a part of.
 
How does one know if the lever gun you're looking at is a toggle action or sliding bolt? You mentioned Win 92 (originals or the modern Japanese made ones?) and Marlin 94s (including the Remington made ones?)

I must admit I'm a complete novice when it comes to lever action guns.
 
The "toggle action" guns are any of the American (Winchester/Miroku) or Italian (Uberti, Chapparell, Chiapa, Armi-Sport are some) built lever gun models of the 1860 henry, 1866 Win, 1873 Win, 1876 Win rifles. The external Identifying aspect of all these rifles is the square cut cartridge elevator visible (usually bright brass colored) from the underside of the gun and corresponding sized opening in the top of the frame.
 
Toggle link actions have a series of toggles and links inside the action to cycle rounds. they look like this with the side plate removed:
Shot11_reinstall_fingerleverandlink.jpg


The action is held closed by a series of links with pins and their interlocking nature prevents the bolt from coming back when the cartridge is fired. With higher pressure loads the parts can bend or warp and cause the rifle to jam and need to be replaced. Some old gunsmiths have bins filled with bent or broken parts from inside toggle link actions that were pushed too hard. Most guys said 44 mag pressures aren't safe with toggle-link actions but Uberti has apparently found a way to do it and pass proofing tests (a federally regulated standard in European countries, companies self regulate in North America so there is no standard).

A dropping block action would look this this cross section:
8593d1246402570-92-94-history-differences-model-92-open.jpg


You can see the big vertical block attached to the lever that comes up from underneath through a channel in the receiver and locks into sections cut into the bolt. There is a lot more steel in a much more rigid configuration holding the closed bolt in place so it can handle higher pressures. We can thank John Browning for this design starting with (I think) the 1886 and ended with the 1895.

These are the classic Winchester designs that are copied by many companies. There are other lever action designs like the Savage 99 that uses a partially falling bolt, not just a block, and modern Browning BLR's that use a rotating multi-lug bolt like a bolt action rifle.

If in doubt about pressures, contact the manufacturer. Some really popular rifles also have their own load data like 45-70 data specific to "Winchester 1886 and Marlin 1895" listed in some manuals.
 
This is only my experience so may not apply to other guns. I've got a Winchester ( modern ie Miroku) 1892 deluxe octagonal takedown in 45 Long Colt. Shoots hot 300 grain RNFP's no problem. Properly reloaded hot 45 Long Colt ammo is in my opinion every bit as good as 44 magnum ammo. The gun shoots straight and is very well made and reliable.
 
Google Paco Kelly and his articles on the 45 Colt. Some of it can be found on gun blast Website. He has a lot of good things to say about the 45 Colt in strong action ed rifles like win 92 and marlin 94.
 
Check out the Rossi-Rifleman forum. It's run by the famous "Ranch Dog" and he uses very hot loads exclusively in all his Rossi m92 rifles. So do I personally. And regardless of what anyone says, the 45 Colt loaded to the same pressure as 44 Magnum has a significant advantage over the 44 magnum. The 44 magnum is good for non reloaders but the 45 Colt really shines when handloaded to "Ruger" level loads and even higher for the modern lever actions. And apparently, the model 92 actions are significantly stronger than the model 94 actions. a steady diet of hot loads in the 94 actions can really stretch them and loosen them up. The 92 not so much. The Rossi is chambered in 454 Casull which is a 60,000psi round. No reason the rifles can't handle high pressure 45 Colt loads provided you use good brass and mark the rounds as such so they don't get accidentally used in something not up to the task.
 
sawzall said:
Check out the Rossi-Rifleman forum. It's run by the famous "Ranch Dog" and he uses very hot loads exclusively in all his Rossi m92 rifles. So do I personally. And regardless of what anyone says, the 45 Colt loaded to the same pressure as 44 Magnum has a significant advantage over the 44 magnum. The 44 magnum is good for non reloaders but the 45 Colt really shines when handloaded to "Ruger" level loads and even higher for the modern lever actions. And apparently, the model 92 actions are significantly stronger than the model 94 actions. a steady diet of hot loads in the 94 actions can really stretch them and loosen them up. The 92 not so much. The Rossi is chambered in 454 Casull which is a 60,000psi round. No reason the rifles can't handle high pressure 45 Colt loads provided you use good brass and mark the rounds as such so they don't get accidentally used in something not up to the task.
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Any truth that Rossi92's in 45LC and 454 Cassul use the same receiver/internals?
 
freddyfour said:
I don't think you are going to find any solid proof one way or the other, I wouldn't run the 45 Colt at 60,000PSI anyways. But Running them around 35,000psi like the 44 mag isn't a problem.
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I agree totally. I'm pretty sure even new Starline brass will give up long before you reach 60,000psi in 45 Colt anyway. I load either a 290gr gas check flat point or the Lee 300gr RNFP over 24gr of LilGun in my 45 Colt Rossi. It's around 30,000psi and it's quite the little thumper especially with the steel crescent but plate in a t-shirt!
 
sawzall said:
I agree totally. I'm pretty sure even new Starline brass will give up long before you reach 60,000psi in 45 Colt anyway. I load either a 290gr gas check flat point or the Lee 300gr RNFP over 24gr of LilGun in my 45 Colt Rossi. It's around 30,000psi and it's quite the little thumper especially with the steel crescent but plate in a t-shirt!
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I only use Starline brass for 45 Colt.

I have heard that the only difference between Starline 45 Colt brass and Starline 454 Casull brass is that 454 Casull uses Small Rifle Primers and it's longer (1.383" as opposed to 1.285" - about 100 thou).
I have heard others say that Starline 454 Casull brass is much thicker and stronger than Starline 45 Colt brass.
Both can't be correct.

I'd love to get ahold of some Starline 454 Casull brass, weight it, measure its volume and section and measure it. No-one else seems to have done that and reported on it, so I guess I'll need to buy 250 454 Casull brass in order to do that, unless I can get a few to try from somewhere else.

Then I'd know, and be able to share that knowledge.

If they're essentially the same - load it up

If the 454 Casull is stronger brass - you could shorten it to 45 Colt length, but you might have to inside ream the necks.
 
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