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- Pile of Bones, SK
Great looking rifle, congrats!
Garand perfection
- Thread starter The Lorax
- Start date
maple_leaf_eh
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Italian Garand production history
What is marked on the receiver heel, the top behind the back sight? FKF and a 3 or 4 digit serial number?
Without seeing the rifle, I suspect as much. There are far more orphaned Danish receivers in Canada than original Breda contract ones. The WRA trigger group and BMR barrel say the same.
Here is some text I copied from a while ago on another forum posted by an Italian:
Breda and Beretta production --very long--
Posted By: LT MB
Date: Wednesday, 27 March 2002, at 12:59 p.m.
In Response To: Breda Siderurgica This forum is moving too fast! (LT MB)
The Fucile Modello 1951 (AKA M1 Garand) was adopted by the Italian Army in the early 50's. The first shipments of rifles coming from US bases all over Europe soon depleted the reserves requiring further shipments from
the US. The rifles were shipped in crates of ten, the most of them from rebuilding facilities (you know all that rebuilding activity going on
while the Korean War was raging) or storage depots. The rifles as received were in various conditions ranging from brand new/unissued WWII examples, (then) current production rifles or rebuilt WWII veterans. The rifles went to the Arsenale Armi Esercito in Terni for a quick check and issue.
It was soon evident that the quantity of M1951 on hands obtained through the MDAP was not going to be enough, in part because production in the US had to be resumed and the reserve of M1 were rapidly depleted. As you all know, in the beginning of the 50's there was an increasing demand from countries like France and Belgium busy to keep their colonies together, while Greece, Denmark, Holland, Norway etc. had standardized the M1 and was having problems in obtaining a sufficient quantity from the USA.
The MDAP program as planned for the Italian Govt was then reworked to include part of the US Govt owned machinery in storage since Winchester had ceased production. The US was to provide a suitable Italian firm all the blueprints, tooling, gauges and assistance to carry out the job. Beretta was selected with Breda (a part State owned concern) as a subcontractor first then as a prime contractor.
Production started around 1952 at Beretta, a little later at Breda. Soon the two companies started to receive orders from other countries (these were almost always US backed and paid MDAP supplies). Indonesia, Denmark, Nigeria, Libia while looks like Jordany, Iran, Somalia and Argentina received small quantities of M1 on different US program or some kind of Italian military aid to those countries.
Breda was the only Italian contractor to build M1Cs. A few hundred rifles (less than a 2000) were assembled with Breda made barrel/blocks in Rome for the Italian Army.
Both Beretta and Breda subcontracted several components and sub-assemblies for the M1. The codes of these subcontractors can often be found on the packaged spares. Most of the parts assembled into the rifles bore the prime contractor code in different styles and fonts.
The most common markings found on the Italian made Garands are PB (Pietro Beretta, Gardone Val Trompia, Brescia), BMB (Breda Meccanica Bresciana, Brescia) and BMR (Breda Meccanica Romana, Rome). Barrels were made by PB, Breda Siderurgica (which also provided the blanks for the receivers). The stocks were from several subcontractors, the most common being Meccanica
Trentina (MT) which provided both prime contractors as well as spares.
Along with the supply of the tooling there were also several tons of unfinished and spare parts that were used all along the production of the Italian Garands and BM59 depending upon the availability of specific items. The flow of parts from the States did not stop until the late 70's.
The rifles built for a foreign order were often given priority over the production for the Italian Army. Some of these production runs were very small and "specific" as in the case of the Indonesian Garands which are marked with a very intricated coat of arms. At least one (I saw it) M1C Garand made for Jordany had the royal family crest and an Arabic inscription (this rifle was captured by the Israelis during the Six-Days-War and later sold along several other "captured" weapons to an Italian dealer).
Will write more when I can confirm the info and figures I have.
Ciao for now
Lt MB
What is marked on the receiver heel, the top behind the back sight? FKF and a 3 or 4 digit serial number?
Without seeing the rifle, I suspect as much. There are far more orphaned Danish receivers in Canada than original Breda contract ones. The WRA trigger group and BMR barrel say the same.
Here is some text I copied from a while ago on another forum posted by an Italian:
Breda and Beretta production --very long--
Posted By: LT MB
Date: Wednesday, 27 March 2002, at 12:59 p.m.
In Response To: Breda Siderurgica This forum is moving too fast! (LT MB)
The Fucile Modello 1951 (AKA M1 Garand) was adopted by the Italian Army in the early 50's. The first shipments of rifles coming from US bases all over Europe soon depleted the reserves requiring further shipments from
the US. The rifles were shipped in crates of ten, the most of them from rebuilding facilities (you know all that rebuilding activity going on
while the Korean War was raging) or storage depots. The rifles as received were in various conditions ranging from brand new/unissued WWII examples, (then) current production rifles or rebuilt WWII veterans. The rifles went to the Arsenale Armi Esercito in Terni for a quick check and issue.
It was soon evident that the quantity of M1951 on hands obtained through the MDAP was not going to be enough, in part because production in the US had to be resumed and the reserve of M1 were rapidly depleted. As you all know, in the beginning of the 50's there was an increasing demand from countries like France and Belgium busy to keep their colonies together, while Greece, Denmark, Holland, Norway etc. had standardized the M1 and was having problems in obtaining a sufficient quantity from the USA.
The MDAP program as planned for the Italian Govt was then reworked to include part of the US Govt owned machinery in storage since Winchester had ceased production. The US was to provide a suitable Italian firm all the blueprints, tooling, gauges and assistance to carry out the job. Beretta was selected with Breda (a part State owned concern) as a subcontractor first then as a prime contractor.
Production started around 1952 at Beretta, a little later at Breda. Soon the two companies started to receive orders from other countries (these were almost always US backed and paid MDAP supplies). Indonesia, Denmark, Nigeria, Libia while looks like Jordany, Iran, Somalia and Argentina received small quantities of M1 on different US program or some kind of Italian military aid to those countries.
Breda was the only Italian contractor to build M1Cs. A few hundred rifles (less than a 2000) were assembled with Breda made barrel/blocks in Rome for the Italian Army.
Both Beretta and Breda subcontracted several components and sub-assemblies for the M1. The codes of these subcontractors can often be found on the packaged spares. Most of the parts assembled into the rifles bore the prime contractor code in different styles and fonts.
The most common markings found on the Italian made Garands are PB (Pietro Beretta, Gardone Val Trompia, Brescia), BMB (Breda Meccanica Bresciana, Brescia) and BMR (Breda Meccanica Romana, Rome). Barrels were made by PB, Breda Siderurgica (which also provided the blanks for the receivers). The stocks were from several subcontractors, the most common being Meccanica
Trentina (MT) which provided both prime contractors as well as spares.
Along with the supply of the tooling there were also several tons of unfinished and spare parts that were used all along the production of the Italian Garands and BM59 depending upon the availability of specific items. The flow of parts from the States did not stop until the late 70's.
The rifles built for a foreign order were often given priority over the production for the Italian Army. Some of these production runs were very small and "specific" as in the case of the Indonesian Garands which are marked with a very intricated coat of arms. At least one (I saw it) M1C Garand made for Jordany had the royal family crest and an Arabic inscription (this rifle was captured by the Israelis during the Six-Days-War and later sold along several other "captured" weapons to an Italian dealer).
Will write more when I can confirm the info and figures I have.
Ciao for now
Lt MB
Receiver: FKF and 4 digit serial number. The serial number is reproduced on the barrel.
Is you point that this is a rifle built for the Danes as opposed to one built for the Italian Army?
I don't get the orphaned receiver statement as military arsenal rifles are often rebuilt using a mix of parts. Rarely will you find a U.S.
M1 that is completely "correct" in terms of all parts matching. Hell, I just noted that the rear sight elevation knob isn't even from an M1 - it has PB BM-59 marked on it!
You mentioned that Italians method for converting over 30-06 barrels to 7.62mm. Do you know what the correct overall length should be?
maple_leaf_eh
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Italian Garands in 7.62 - long
Don't despair. The vendor did not cheat you. You wanted a 7.62mm Garand, and by the looks of it you got a sweet one! But be cognizant that your rifle is a bit different by 1/2" than a USGI or a 30-06 Danish contract rifle.
The Danes were part of the contract buys that my Italian source mentions. Denmark called their Garands 'Gev/1955' (or something close), and like the Italians the Danes ran short of WWII production Garands. The Italian-made Garands accepted for the Danes are marked FKF / Nr / ### ####.
The 7.62 Garand conversions were a way for the Italians to get into the bigger standardization game. Beretta converted and built a variety of limited run Garands to the NATO cartridge. They named them 'Typo' with a letter. The BM59 and BM62 are their evolution of the Garand principle to a magazine fed shorter infantry rifle. The Danish converted to G3s in the 60's some time and to my knowledge never bothered with converting Garands to 7.62.
Although the Danish rifles came out of their war reserves, they were inspected before going into grease. When the armourers looked at a rifle, it was function tested and gauged. Properly fitting parts would have been swapped in to make them meet inspection. A BMB trigger group with US and PB parts, still goes snap and fires a SA rifle with a WRA op rod and a VAR barrel. It is only us collectors after the fact that try to reassemble guns as we think they were when they left the plant.
The sight you have is graduated for 7.62 NATO. And only proves that there are Garand-family parts everywhere. I suspect the stock is a new build because the Italians liked rubber buttplates on their rifles, but without any other references it could just as easily be left from a surplus Italian conversion.
Your barrel will have BMB or BMR or PB with a little crown for Italian - Danish contracts. Ones marked VAR were from Danish arsenal production. The fact it has the rifle's serial number tells me it was more recently modified from a 30-06 and numbered for production line tidyness.
My poorly worded remark about orphaned receivers refers to the fact that when Alan Lever was selling his rifles, he could not export the whole rifle. Blame Bill Clinton for closing the border. Guys were buying rifles to strip for parts to sell into the US. There are hundreds and maybe thousands of bare receivers here that never left Canada, hence my term orphaned. Your new rifle was made on one of those receivers, as a way of getting some money back and getting them moving out of storage.
Don't despair. The vendor did not cheat you. You wanted a 7.62mm Garand, and by the looks of it you got a sweet one! But be cognizant that your rifle is a bit different by 1/2" than a USGI or a 30-06 Danish contract rifle.
The Danes were part of the contract buys that my Italian source mentions. Denmark called their Garands 'Gev/1955' (or something close), and like the Italians the Danes ran short of WWII production Garands. The Italian-made Garands accepted for the Danes are marked FKF / Nr / ### ####.
The 7.62 Garand conversions were a way for the Italians to get into the bigger standardization game. Beretta converted and built a variety of limited run Garands to the NATO cartridge. They named them 'Typo' with a letter. The BM59 and BM62 are their evolution of the Garand principle to a magazine fed shorter infantry rifle. The Danish converted to G3s in the 60's some time and to my knowledge never bothered with converting Garands to 7.62.
Although the Danish rifles came out of their war reserves, they were inspected before going into grease. When the armourers looked at a rifle, it was function tested and gauged. Properly fitting parts would have been swapped in to make them meet inspection. A BMB trigger group with US and PB parts, still goes snap and fires a SA rifle with a WRA op rod and a VAR barrel. It is only us collectors after the fact that try to reassemble guns as we think they were when they left the plant.
The sight you have is graduated for 7.62 NATO. And only proves that there are Garand-family parts everywhere. I suspect the stock is a new build because the Italians liked rubber buttplates on their rifles, but without any other references it could just as easily be left from a surplus Italian conversion.
Your barrel will have BMB or BMR or PB with a little crown for Italian - Danish contracts. Ones marked VAR were from Danish arsenal production. The fact it has the rifle's serial number tells me it was more recently modified from a 30-06 and numbered for production line tidyness.
My poorly worded remark about orphaned receivers refers to the fact that when Alan Lever was selling his rifles, he could not export the whole rifle. Blame Bill Clinton for closing the border. Guys were buying rifles to strip for parts to sell into the US. There are hundreds and maybe thousands of bare receivers here that never left Canada, hence my term orphaned. Your new rifle was made on one of those receivers, as a way of getting some money back and getting them moving out of storage.
I called TSE today and they put me on to the distributor who is Germany: Waffen Schumacher.
These are arsenal rebuilds. The link to the brochure is here (see page 18):
http://www.waffenschumacher.com/needfullthings.pl?action=show_site;siteID=47;p=downloadPDF;pdf=13
Maple leaf eh thanks for taking the time to explain all this. It's been very helpful!
These are arsenal rebuilds. The link to the brochure is here (see page 18):
http://www.waffenschumacher.com/needfullthings.pl?action=show_site;siteID=47;p=downloadPDF;pdf=13
Maple leaf eh thanks for taking the time to explain all this. It's been very helpful!
maple_leaf_eh
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
As a confirmation on the stock dimensions:
I measured a 30-06 PB Garand - the rear handguard has 10 1/2" of wood exposed between the back edge of the middle band and the front of the receiver. It is a square cut so easy to do at the rebuilding plant. The stock measures 29 1/2" or 29 9/16" from the back surface of the buttplate to the centre of the sling swivel screw. It would require a bit more machining plans and effort to reproduce the stock ferrule male profile on an existing Garang stock. But neither piece of woodworking is difficult looking.
The stocks that SARCO was selling were reportedly hideously overpainted with black paint. Someone was less subtle when converting those stocks. Bandsaw out a short section, dowel pins and glue to reattach the nose and ferrule, then slather on the paint. The guys who discovered they had been had, were some PO'ed when they chimed up on the internet forums!
I measured a 30-06 PB Garand - the rear handguard has 10 1/2" of wood exposed between the back edge of the middle band and the front of the receiver. It is a square cut so easy to do at the rebuilding plant. The stock measures 29 1/2" or 29 9/16" from the back surface of the buttplate to the centre of the sling swivel screw. It would require a bit more machining plans and effort to reproduce the stock ferrule male profile on an existing Garang stock. But neither piece of woodworking is difficult looking.
The stocks that SARCO was selling were reportedly hideously overpainted with black paint. Someone was less subtle when converting those stocks. Bandsaw out a short section, dowel pins and glue to reattach the nose and ferrule, then slather on the paint. The guys who discovered they had been had, were some PO'ed when they chimed up on the internet forums!
Just picked one up myself tonight! Beretta receiver (PB+3digits but nothing stamped on the left that says Beretta ?) with a milled trigger guard and the darkest walnut stock I've ever seen. It has what looks like HRA on the barrel stamp.
There was two or three left.
There was two or three left.
I've built 2 of these rifles on Breda receivers using the barrels,op rods,stocks and rear handgds which were shortened approx .5 inch by the Italians.In both cases the barrels were standard US GI Springfield Armory vintage 1963 which gauged like new at muzzle and throat.As was mentioned, the barrels were shortened at the breach end,re-threaded,and re-chambered in 7.62.Barrels indexed correctly with the proper degree of offset from vertical before tightening.Correct headspace was achieved by selective fit of standard bolts.One of the shortened op rods was an IHC,the other was SA made.All other parts are standard GI Garand parts.I believe that the Italian Army called these the Tipo 2 conversion and so marked the receiver to the rear of the rear sight as well as the op rod.Receivers and op rods were also stamped 7.62mm to insure that the correct ammunition was used. I found these conversions to be both reliable and accurate and, IMHO,emminently more preferable than the Norinco M14 clones.I don't know if these 7.62 conversions were ever adopted by the Danish Army,but they were certainly taken into service by the Italians.The FKF marked receivers were produced by both Beretta and Breda for the Danes and are marked PB and BMR respectively.There is little authenticated documentation on the Garands that the Danes procured from the Italian manufacturers. Hopefully this will emerge at some point in the future.
All gone I think.
Shot mine too. Shoots great. One question. I'm a lefty and the Garand is ejecting straight back over my head with about every second casing glancing off of my forehead. Is there a way to alter the direction it ejects to?
maple_leaf_eh
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
No. The US Army issued one standard rifle. Left handed shooters had to adapt.
The only suggestion I would make is to rig up a deflector. My mind's eye sees a bump or surface like the C7 or AG42B. Maybe you could rig one using the spring steel sight base as the foundation. There is unused realestate around the sides if an inventor wabted to screw something on somewhere.
To make a long story short.... if your Garand is well greased ( not lubed)and chamber is clean, it is designed to eject at one o'clock.
The more it gets dirtier or improperly greased the more it will eject at 4-6 o'clock.
Well written in US Army docs somewhere.
BTW, I am lefty too and have survived so far firing the M1 for a few years.....
unharmed.
BB
