Garand rebuild?
- Thread starter Beardy.91
- Start date
What is wrong with it now?
If you are going for accuracy you should forget Crome lined barrels. There is no need for them as pretty much all .308 and 3006 is non corrosive.
You can buy new barrels through tradex or from other members in the EE for 3006 and .308.
Many will have the tools to swap barrels for you as well
Is yours a shortened 7.62 garand? If so most barrels are not a simple swap as the oprod and stock is about a half inch shorter.
If you are going for accuracy you should forget Crome lined barrels. There is no need for them as pretty much all .308 and 3006 is non corrosive.
You can buy new barrels through tradex or from other members in the EE for 3006 and .308.
Many will have the tools to swap barrels for you as well
Is yours a shortened 7.62 garand? If so most barrels are not a simple swap as the oprod and stock is about a half inch shorter.
If you want a chrome lined barrel, get a Criterion in .308. If you use a Beretta bolt, it will headspace properly. The Criterion people produce a great barrel and they go to great trouble to building their barrels to the proper specifications.
A chrome lined Criterion barrel will time easily on an Italian Garand. And it will easily headspace.
Criterion uses a different process to chrome line their barrels and I have not noticed any loss of accuracy.
A chrome lined Criterion barrel will time easily on an Italian Garand. And it will easily headspace.
Criterion uses a different process to chrome line their barrels and I have not noticed any loss of accuracy.
I had it checked by a gunsmith, he told me the headspace is a bit loose, and the barrel's sloppy. He did give it the "OK" for shooting some commercial ammo, but I know enough not to dive into firing off every shelf brand.
Last edited:
You seem to be struggling with this based on the number of questions that you have asked concerning this rifle and appropriate ammunition for it.
From your previous descriptions you appear to have a 7.62 NATO chambered Garand that was assembled using the unique Italian 7.62 NATO conversion parts. In addition to the 7.62 chambering, the main difference between these rifles and a standard Garand is their shorter 23.5 inch barrel and correspondingly shorter op rod, stock and rear handguard. We do not know if this rifle was assembled by an Italian military arsenal or by someone else using the Italian parts as a kit. To help confirm this it would be useful if you would report the markings on the heel of receiver behind the rear sight as well as the markings on the right side of the barrel. A close-up pic of these would be helpful.
As indicated in post #2 if you wish to replace this barrel with a commercial .308 Win barrel you will also need to acquire a standard length Garand op rod, stock and rear handguard because of the longer barrel. Headspace is another issue. If the rifle was assembled by a military arsenal headspace would have been established for the 7.62 NATO round which means that headspace allowance would be considerably greater than that for a .308 Win round. The only way to establish exactly what the headspace is to use a selection of headspace gauges. Do you know what dimensions of headspace gauges your gunsmith used to do these checks? Headspace can be tightened up in a Garand by trial fitting a selection of bolts to find one which will provide tighter headspace with the existing barrel. Different bolts will quite often establish different headspace as a result of manufacturing tolerances on the bolts as well as accumulated wear on the rear of the bolt lugs. The degree of wear on the bolt lug seats in the receiver will also produce different headspace with different bolts. The post-war Springfield bolts, which can be found in new condition, are unworn and tend to be a bit longer than other bolts, so they can often be used to tighten up headspace. Whether the rifle is actually chambered for 7.62NATO or .308 Win, if the bolt does not close on a .308 Win "field" headspace gauge it can be judged safe to shoot. I like to see about 1.632 as the minimum headspace due to the build up of powder fouling in the chamber when firing. I'd also ask if you are getting case separations from whatever type of ammo that you are shooting as this is a certain indication of excessive headspace when new brass is used.
You mention that a gunsmith found the barrel to be sloppy. What does this mean? The only way to establish interior barrel dimensions and the degree of wear in the key areas of throat and muzzle is to use gauges of a known dimension. A new Garand barrel has a nominal bore diameter at the muzzle of .300. Anything up to .303 at the muzzle can be acceptable provided that the rifle still shoots well and that the crown is in good shape. Military overhaul criteria would replace a barrel which gauged in excess of .302 at the muzzle, but no dimensional standard was established for rifles in the hands of troops. If the rifle kept acceptable accuracy it was deemed to be serviceable.
I mentioned in another post that the Tipo 2 barrels that I own are only lightly used with none gauging more than .301 at the muzzle or .302 in the throat. That's more than a lifetime of shooting left for the average civvy Garand owner. I'd expect similar wear on your barrel. If you would like a rough assessment of muzzle wear insert a factory round into the muzzle and look at the distance between the mouth of the case and where the bullet rests against the muzzle. If the bullet goes in as far as the case mouth then the barrel is worn to the point of needing replacement. More muzzles have been worn out by improper cleaning and cleaning rod abrasion than by shooting. This is why a cleaning rod guide is a recommended accessory for a Garand.
There is nothing magical about having a chrome lined barrel as far as accuracy is concerned. More than 6 million Garands, and probably at least as many military replacement barrels were built, none of which ever had a chrome lined bore. Chrome lined bore were developed for military applications to minimize wear and corrosion and to facilitate cleaning in service use. They are fitted to a lot of machine guns where high barrel temps, fouling and gas erosion are an issue. US GI M14 barrels are chrome lined as were our own FN barrels if my memory serves me correctly. Chrome lining isn't an exact science as the bore must be cut somewhat oversize for it with the interior dimension built up with chrome plating by electrolysis. It can be problematic to get a uniform thickness of chrome plating throughout the bore, whereas conventional button rifled bores are quite uniform in their dimensions. Another issue is that a chrome lined chamber cannot be finish reamed to set up correct headspace because the chrome cannot be cut by a finishing reamer. These barrels have the final chamber dimensions set up before installation, after which headspace is established by fitting bolts of varying dimensions until a bolt is found which will establish the proper go/no-go headspace parameters with headspace gauges.
If you don't like the cosmetic appearance of the receiver and other metal parts the rifle can be re-parkerized to produce an as new military finish. As far as commercial ammo is concerned, this has been pretty much beaten to death in your previous posts about this. No matter what your gunsmith has to say, use MILSPEC ammo, handloads which are assembled with the correct propellants and bullet weights or use an adjustable gas plug if you want to shoot some brand of commercial ammo.
From your previous descriptions you appear to have a 7.62 NATO chambered Garand that was assembled using the unique Italian 7.62 NATO conversion parts. In addition to the 7.62 chambering, the main difference between these rifles and a standard Garand is their shorter 23.5 inch barrel and correspondingly shorter op rod, stock and rear handguard. We do not know if this rifle was assembled by an Italian military arsenal or by someone else using the Italian parts as a kit. To help confirm this it would be useful if you would report the markings on the heel of receiver behind the rear sight as well as the markings on the right side of the barrel. A close-up pic of these would be helpful.
As indicated in post #2 if you wish to replace this barrel with a commercial .308 Win barrel you will also need to acquire a standard length Garand op rod, stock and rear handguard because of the longer barrel. Headspace is another issue. If the rifle was assembled by a military arsenal headspace would have been established for the 7.62 NATO round which means that headspace allowance would be considerably greater than that for a .308 Win round. The only way to establish exactly what the headspace is to use a selection of headspace gauges. Do you know what dimensions of headspace gauges your gunsmith used to do these checks? Headspace can be tightened up in a Garand by trial fitting a selection of bolts to find one which will provide tighter headspace with the existing barrel. Different bolts will quite often establish different headspace as a result of manufacturing tolerances on the bolts as well as accumulated wear on the rear of the bolt lugs. The degree of wear on the bolt lug seats in the receiver will also produce different headspace with different bolts. The post-war Springfield bolts, which can be found in new condition, are unworn and tend to be a bit longer than other bolts, so they can often be used to tighten up headspace. Whether the rifle is actually chambered for 7.62NATO or .308 Win, if the bolt does not close on a .308 Win "field" headspace gauge it can be judged safe to shoot. I like to see about 1.632 as the minimum headspace due to the build up of powder fouling in the chamber when firing. I'd also ask if you are getting case separations from whatever type of ammo that you are shooting as this is a certain indication of excessive headspace when new brass is used.
You mention that a gunsmith found the barrel to be sloppy. What does this mean? The only way to establish interior barrel dimensions and the degree of wear in the key areas of throat and muzzle is to use gauges of a known dimension. A new Garand barrel has a nominal bore diameter at the muzzle of .300. Anything up to .303 at the muzzle can be acceptable provided that the rifle still shoots well and that the crown is in good shape. Military overhaul criteria would replace a barrel which gauged in excess of .302 at the muzzle, but no dimensional standard was established for rifles in the hands of troops. If the rifle kept acceptable accuracy it was deemed to be serviceable.
I mentioned in another post that the Tipo 2 barrels that I own are only lightly used with none gauging more than .301 at the muzzle or .302 in the throat. That's more than a lifetime of shooting left for the average civvy Garand owner. I'd expect similar wear on your barrel. If you would like a rough assessment of muzzle wear insert a factory round into the muzzle and look at the distance between the mouth of the case and where the bullet rests against the muzzle. If the bullet goes in as far as the case mouth then the barrel is worn to the point of needing replacement. More muzzles have been worn out by improper cleaning and cleaning rod abrasion than by shooting. This is why a cleaning rod guide is a recommended accessory for a Garand.
There is nothing magical about having a chrome lined barrel as far as accuracy is concerned. More than 6 million Garands, and probably at least as many military replacement barrels were built, none of which ever had a chrome lined bore. Chrome lined bore were developed for military applications to minimize wear and corrosion and to facilitate cleaning in service use. They are fitted to a lot of machine guns where high barrel temps, fouling and gas erosion are an issue. US GI M14 barrels are chrome lined as were our own FN barrels if my memory serves me correctly. Chrome lining isn't an exact science as the bore must be cut somewhat oversize for it with the interior dimension built up with chrome plating by electrolysis. It can be problematic to get a uniform thickness of chrome plating throughout the bore, whereas conventional button rifled bores are quite uniform in their dimensions. Another issue is that a chrome lined chamber cannot be finish reamed to set up correct headspace because the chrome cannot be cut by a finishing reamer. These barrels have the final chamber dimensions set up before installation, after which headspace is established by fitting bolts of varying dimensions until a bolt is found which will establish the proper go/no-go headspace parameters with headspace gauges.
If you don't like the cosmetic appearance of the receiver and other metal parts the rifle can be re-parkerized to produce an as new military finish. As far as commercial ammo is concerned, this has been pretty much beaten to death in your previous posts about this. No matter what your gunsmith has to say, use MILSPEC ammo, handloads which are assembled with the correct propellants and bullet weights or use an adjustable gas plug if you want to shoot some brand of commercial ammo.
maple_leaf_eh
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Slightly off-topic, the folklore about the Canadian FN C1 barrels was they were made to specification initially then someone decided they had to be chromed. Into the baths (?) they went. The resulting barrels were plated to a smaller inside diameter than original. The DCRA Service Rifle shooters sought out those few thousand rifles for their competition rifles because the barrels would hold tighter groups with sometimes indifferently quality controlled ammunition. Which was not to say DA was anything less than spectacular in the beginning.
Back to topic, does the original poster expect to get benchrest consistency with a Garand? There are far too many moving parts and other bits dangling off the barrel to be perfectly repeatable shot for shot. It is the nature of the design. However, by fitting good quality parts that are at the tight end of the tolerance range, he can get as good performance as that rifle is capable of giving.
maple_leaf_eh
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Did he define 'some'? There was/are Remington UMC and Winchester stock numbers for 150gr FMJ commercial ammo which is perfect for the Garand. Good luck finding any in the stores. Most places only stock soft point, and I haven't seen it for 15 or 20 years.
Likely cost you money you'll never get back should you ever decide to sell it.
Headspace is not something that gets measured either. It's a tolerance only and doesn't get 'loose'. If the bolt closes on a Go gauge, but not on a No-Go, it's fine.
The chambers on the 24" chromed barrels sold Stateside by Criterion a few years back were also chromed. Means no finish reaming adjust headspace. They either fit for headspace or they didn't.
That smithy tell you what he meant by "the barrel's sloppy"? And ""OK" for shooting some commercial ammo."? What ammo do you think was used before there was an Internet to claim a rifle can be damaged by the ammo and there was such a thing as "Garand ammo"?
Headspace is not something that gets measured either. It's a tolerance only and doesn't get 'loose'. If the bolt closes on a Go gauge, but not on a No-Go, it's fine.
The chambers on the 24" chromed barrels sold Stateside by Criterion a few years back were also chromed. Means no finish reaming adjust headspace. They either fit for headspace or they didn't.
That smithy tell you what he meant by "the barrel's sloppy"? And ""OK" for shooting some commercial ammo."? What ammo do you think was used before there was an Internet to claim a rifle can be damaged by the ammo and there was such a thing as "Garand ammo"?
I read your post again. 7.62 Nato is a different calibre from .308 Winchester. A 7.62 Nato chamber has longer headspace and to properly measure your receiver, barrel and bolt, you need 7.62 Nato headspace gauges.
http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-t...-62-nato-maximum-chamber-gauge-prod41040.aspx
If your smith used .308 Winchester gauges, his readings would be off. Get hold of some 7.62 Nato gauges and as long as your bolt does not close on a field gauge you are good.
Before measuring, you should strip your bolt. Then make sure that the chamber is clean and dry. Then insert the gauge and gently try to seat the bolt.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvI97DVQS70
If your rifle passes the 7.62 Nato gauge test, you should buy a few cases of Hirtenberger 7.62 Nato ammo.
It is probably not a good idea to shoot .308 Winchester through your rifle. .308 Winchester cases have the same external dimensions as 7.62 Nato cases; however, .308 Winchester cases have thinner case webs. .308 Winchester ammo is also loaded to higher pressure and there is a risk that a .308 case can fail when fired in a 7.62 Nato chamber.
Now many folks have fired .308 brass in a 7.62 Nato chamber. But it still not the best practise.
http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-t...-62-nato-maximum-chamber-gauge-prod41040.aspx
If your smith used .308 Winchester gauges, his readings would be off. Get hold of some 7.62 Nato gauges and as long as your bolt does not close on a field gauge you are good.
Before measuring, you should strip your bolt. Then make sure that the chamber is clean and dry. Then insert the gauge and gently try to seat the bolt.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvI97DVQS70
If your rifle passes the 7.62 Nato gauge test, you should buy a few cases of Hirtenberger 7.62 Nato ammo.
It is probably not a good idea to shoot .308 Winchester through your rifle. .308 Winchester cases have the same external dimensions as 7.62 Nato cases; however, .308 Winchester cases have thinner case webs. .308 Winchester ammo is also loaded to higher pressure and there is a risk that a .308 case can fail when fired in a 7.62 Nato chamber.
Now many folks have fired .308 brass in a 7.62 Nato chamber. But it still not the best practise.
Last edited:
I'm not struggling with anything lol I'm only asking questions, and looking for answers from people more knowledgable than I am. It's called EDUCATION.
7.62x51= .308 with very slight differences.
What he meant by "sloppy" was when he ran a gauge through it, the barrel loosely held the gauge, and the headspace wasn't perfect, but it was good enough.
Don't think I'm struggling with anything, I'm only seeking knowledge, which is something not many people do these days.
The reason I ask questions is because there isn't a whole lot of consistent information on m1 Garands on any other forum, so I'd rather ask people who have experience with Garands. By non-consistent information, I mean each person said something different, which is the same case here, and the reason I pick the answer with the most information.
A good point on accuracy expectations with a Garand. If folks want consistent sub- MOA accuracy my advise is to buy a heavy barreled .308 Win or .223Rem bolt rifle, fit it with a suitable scope and use precision handloads in it. The Garand was designed and built as a combat weapon, not a precision target rifle.
A match conditioned Garand can be highly accurate with all of the special modifications that are required to do this. A service condition Garand can still be very accurate depending on how the old 3 legged stool of accuracy comes together; condition of the rifle, quality of the ammo and the skills of the individual shooter. There are a number of tweaks that can be done to get a Garand shooting consistently and accurately. It starts with the quality of the barrel followed by stock bedding, establishing proper handguard and op rod fit and clearances, tight lower band, tightness of the sights and the fit of the gas cylinder and gas cyl lock. It's good to have a stock of parts on hand to experiment with selective parts fitting to improve things. Provided that the barrel is sound most tweaked up Garands in service condition should be capable of 2 MOA accuracy using quality handloads. Some will do better.
I've only shot Norinco 7.62 FMJ 155gr through it, the first of those casings expanded in the chamber, luckily it didn't damage anything, and it hasn't happened again. My guess is either a weak casing, or because the action was so stiff, the pressure wasn't enough to push it back fast enough to extract the casing, but it did rip off part of the rim. I'll look for the hirtenberger 7.62 NATO ammo, and see if I can get some ordered.
Let's take a look at the numbers:
Here are the comparative numbers for .308 Winchester and 7.62 Nato gauges:
308Win:
GO 1.630"
NO GO 1.634"
FIELD 1.638 "
7.62NATO (M14 US MILSPEC):
GO 1.6355"
NOGO 1.638"
FIELD 1.6445"
As you can see there is some overlap in the dimensions. But you can see that a 7.62 chamber might appear to be sloppy if measured with .308 gauges.
Buy a 7.62 Nato Field guage from Brownells. The price is $28.99. The part number is 319-000-006AK. If your bolt does not close on that guage, then your rifle is within specifications for 7.62 Nato and you do not have anything sloppy.
Norinco cases are steel plated with a copper wash. Sometimes they do not extract as they should. My .308 Garand has a chrome lined chamber and it extracts Norinco cases without any trouble. This chrome lined barrel is in .308 caliber and I can shoot either .308 Winchester brass or 7.62 Nato ammo.
I am certain that mine is a .308 because the barrel is so marked and the bolt will not close on a 1.634" no go gauge
Check your chamber with a Nato gauge, get brass cased 7.62 Nato Hertenberger ammo and live happily ever after.
Here are the comparative numbers for .308 Winchester and 7.62 Nato gauges:
308Win:
GO 1.630"
NO GO 1.634"
FIELD 1.638 "
7.62NATO (M14 US MILSPEC):
GO 1.6355"
NOGO 1.638"
FIELD 1.6445"
As you can see there is some overlap in the dimensions. But you can see that a 7.62 chamber might appear to be sloppy if measured with .308 gauges.
Buy a 7.62 Nato Field guage from Brownells. The price is $28.99. The part number is 319-000-006AK. If your bolt does not close on that guage, then your rifle is within specifications for 7.62 Nato and you do not have anything sloppy.
Norinco cases are steel plated with a copper wash. Sometimes they do not extract as they should. My .308 Garand has a chrome lined chamber and it extracts Norinco cases without any trouble. This chrome lined barrel is in .308 caliber and I can shoot either .308 Winchester brass or 7.62 Nato ammo.
I am certain that mine is a .308 because the barrel is so marked and the bolt will not close on a 1.634" no go gauge
Check your chamber with a Nato gauge, get brass cased 7.62 Nato Hertenberger ammo and live happily ever after.
Last edited:
When the extractor rips thru the rim of the case this is often an indicator of a badly fouled or rough chamber. This is why the military issued a chamber brush to the troops for use with the Garand and M14. Chambers should always be cleaned after firing. You can improvise a chamber brush by getting a small nylon bottle type brush that fits in the chamber tightly and bending the wire handle at a 90 degree handle. Use lots of solvent, scrub the chamber vigorously and follow up with a couple of cleaning patches on the cleaning rod jag inserted from the chamber end.
As I mentioned in one of my responses to your other posts, it is a good idea to establish exactly what the headspace condition is in your rifle before shooting it. It is unlikely that your gunsmith would have a set of 7.62NATO gauges as these are few and far between. If the bolt will close on a .308Win "no-go" gauge (1.634) and will not close on a .308Win "field" gauge (1.638) it should be good to fire either .308Win or 7.62NATO marked ammo, assuming of course that this ammo is loaded with the propellants that are compatible with the Garand gas system. From looking at what is available on the surplus ammo bazaars these days the Austrian Hirtenberger surplus ammo would seem like a good bet. Even after checking with headspace gauges it is still a good idea to trial chamber ammo that you plan to shoot by using the rifle itself as a gauge. To do this strip the bolt and close the bolt by hand on the rounds using light finger pressure. If the rounds chamber freely with a bolt that meets the 1.634/1.638 gauge parameters in the rifle, then it should be good to go. For the sake of illustration I have recently trial chambered all of the following factory rounds in a rifle that is set up like this and found all of them to chamber freely; RG82/87 Brit ball, DA64 Cdn ball, LC71 US Match ammo, Federal .308 168gr match ammo, Rem 150gr .308 Core-lokt, and WRA 7.62 labelled commercial ammo. I must add that I have no intention to fire any of the .308Win commercial ammo in these rifles.
At the end of all of this I'm still not certain of exactly what your problems are with this rifle or what you want to achieve with it, but I can report that I am shooting three Garands which I have assembled using the unique Italian 7.62 Tipo 2 components with 2 more builds pending. All of these function well and are accurate to boot. They even look like pristine military rifles by reason of re-parkerizing or as a result of using new military components. I set the headspace on all of these rifles by using the .308 Win "no-go" gauge (1.634) as a 'go" gauge and the .308Win "field" gauge as a "no-go" gauge. I shoot either Brit or Cdn NATO MILSPEC ammo or handloads in them using IMR4064, IMR4895, IMR3031 or H4895 and 150,155, and 168gr bullets and am entirely satisfied with them. I think that your rifle is capable of performing equally well, but I would advise having someone who is familiar with Garands inspect it in detail and do some function/accuracy checks using the appropriate gauges and ammo.
If you want more knowledge about the Garand rifle and all aspects of it's functioning, maintenance and user info I suggest that you get the following hard copy references, all of which are produced by reputable sources and all of which are available from Brownells. Younger folks seem to be conditioned to look to the internet first. There is a lot of information on the 'net, some good and some bad and some from less than knowledgeable people.
-The US .30 Cal Service Rifles by Jerry Kuhnhausen
-The M1 Garand Owners Guide by Scott Duff
-The Book of the Garand by Hatcher
As I mentioned in one of my responses to your other posts, it is a good idea to establish exactly what the headspace condition is in your rifle before shooting it. It is unlikely that your gunsmith would have a set of 7.62NATO gauges as these are few and far between. If the bolt will close on a .308Win "no-go" gauge (1.634) and will not close on a .308Win "field" gauge (1.638) it should be good to fire either .308Win or 7.62NATO marked ammo, assuming of course that this ammo is loaded with the propellants that are compatible with the Garand gas system. From looking at what is available on the surplus ammo bazaars these days the Austrian Hirtenberger surplus ammo would seem like a good bet. Even after checking with headspace gauges it is still a good idea to trial chamber ammo that you plan to shoot by using the rifle itself as a gauge. To do this strip the bolt and close the bolt by hand on the rounds using light finger pressure. If the rounds chamber freely with a bolt that meets the 1.634/1.638 gauge parameters in the rifle, then it should be good to go. For the sake of illustration I have recently trial chambered all of the following factory rounds in a rifle that is set up like this and found all of them to chamber freely; RG82/87 Brit ball, DA64 Cdn ball, LC71 US Match ammo, Federal .308 168gr match ammo, Rem 150gr .308 Core-lokt, and WRA 7.62 labelled commercial ammo. I must add that I have no intention to fire any of the .308Win commercial ammo in these rifles.
At the end of all of this I'm still not certain of exactly what your problems are with this rifle or what you want to achieve with it, but I can report that I am shooting three Garands which I have assembled using the unique Italian 7.62 Tipo 2 components with 2 more builds pending. All of these function well and are accurate to boot. They even look like pristine military rifles by reason of re-parkerizing or as a result of using new military components. I set the headspace on all of these rifles by using the .308 Win "no-go" gauge (1.634) as a 'go" gauge and the .308Win "field" gauge as a "no-go" gauge. I shoot either Brit or Cdn NATO MILSPEC ammo or handloads in them using IMR4064, IMR4895, IMR3031 or H4895 and 150,155, and 168gr bullets and am entirely satisfied with them. I think that your rifle is capable of performing equally well, but I would advise having someone who is familiar with Garands inspect it in detail and do some function/accuracy checks using the appropriate gauges and ammo.
If you want more knowledge about the Garand rifle and all aspects of it's functioning, maintenance and user info I suggest that you get the following hard copy references, all of which are produced by reputable sources and all of which are available from Brownells. Younger folks seem to be conditioned to look to the internet first. There is a lot of information on the 'net, some good and some bad and some from less than knowledgeable people.
-The US .30 Cal Service Rifles by Jerry Kuhnhausen
-The M1 Garand Owners Guide by Scott Duff
-The Book of the Garand by Hatcher
Last edited:
