GARANDS for sale

The general price ranking for MILSURPs is;
1. Original, as arsenal built with all original parts and finish
2. Military arsenal rebuilds/overhauls with re-parked metal, refinished or new stocks, and mis-matched parts
3. Restored/refinished pieces

The fact is that the vast majority of US military pieces were rebuilt at least once, so it is tough to find any US MILSURP in original configuration. Parts from any maker were made to be interchangeable, so you will find most pieces with some parts mis-matches and replacement barrels. If you can find an original receiver/barrel combination with the barrel in good shape it is a good basis for a restoration. Several of the previously discussed P&S Garands that I got did have their original barrels and reasonably intact finishes on the receivers which was a nice bonus. We can all be a little silly about prices. I've had a spring 1945 vintage Garand barrel with an excellent, unworn bore hanging around for a while and just recently located a nice Springfield receiver which matches the barrel date. The receiver had no original finish left, but was sound and unpitted, so naturally I paid a stupid high price for it. I'll re-park it and put it together with parts that are all date correct, except for the wood. It's value is basically the sum of what I paid for all the parts.
 
http://www.miltecharms.com/index.htm

Here's another place with ridiculous prices that appeals to those looking for the new look.
I've heard from a few people that they sent in their M1941 Johnson to get the refurb treatment, but that company ended up stripping off all the original parts and stock and put on repro parts where they could!

Then there's Mitchell's Mausers. Same Gong Show.
 
I agree that a put together, re-parked or re-blued isn't in the same category as an original. But, I can honestly say I have only ever seen a few M-1 Garands that have their original finish. They have almost all been refinish, at military depots, armorers, ect. A refinished gun is still a refinished gun. I actually know where one Garand is in Canada that is all original 1940-41, a beautiful mint Brit. contract gun. So, once again, there are basically no "original" Garands out there, they have almost all been pulled apart, repaired, reworked, overhauled, ect. So, I see it that we are arguing semantics, it comes down to what some one is willing to pay to get the gun. Each time someone pays a higher price to get that type of gun, the story about the buy makes the rounds and others decide that their gun must be worth that much or more.
 
purple said:
The general price ranking for MILSURPs is;
1. Original, as arsenal built with all original parts and finish
2. Military arsenal rebuilds/overhauls with re-parked metal, refinished or new stocks, and mis-matched parts
3. Restored/refinished pieces

The fact is that the vast majority of US military pieces were rebuilt at least once, so it is tough to find any US MILSURP in original configuration. Parts from any maker were made to be interchangeable, so you will find most pieces with some parts mis-matches and replacement barrels. If you can find an original receiver/barrel combination with the barrel in good shape it is a good basis for a restoration. Several of the previously discussed P&S Garands that I got did have their original barrels and reasonably intact finishes on the receivers which was a nice bonus. We can all be a little silly about prices. I've had a spring 1945 vintage Garand barrel with an excellent, unworn bore hanging around for a while and just recently located a nice Springfield receiver which matches the barrel date. The receiver had no original finish left, but was sound and unpitted, so naturally I paid a stupid high price for it. I'll re-park it and put it together with parts that are all date correct, except for the wood. It's value is basically the sum of what I paid for all the parts.
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Thanks Purple for pointing that out, I glanced at this poist and guess IO over looked it and sort or repeated what you said.
 
Is Purple selling his guns as originals? No, he is selling his guns as rebuilds. He is not trying to be sneeky about it.

I agree that the current price for Garands is far more than I am willing to pay, but to each their own. Welcome to the supply and demand marketplace. It is a good thing that you don't live in the US and are looking to buy .223, 9mm or .22LR.

Or an AR

Or reloading componets

Or magazines
 
I don't think anyone is questioning any of the sellers or the companies that produce these units. These units will change hands many times over the years and will surely be passed off or tried to be passed off as the real thing - eventually.

If anything, it's buyer beware on any sale and do your homework before. And if that's what you want, so be it.

The people that buy them seem to be the Newbie or first time buyer that doesn't really know any better due to lack of experience or an impulse buy because it looks so nice and gotta have it now.

It shows up so many times on all the different gun forums.

Some of those refurbs like the K98 just look Cheesy...
 
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Coyote Ugly, I think your last statement is ALMOST bang on. I will explain what I mean by that so as to clarify. At this year (and last years) Calgary show, there was a gentlemen with an 1897 trench shotgun (I saw a total of 3 in my limited travels at the show as I had to get back to my table), 2 of the 97s were honest to god, original 1897 trench guns.

The first one was an early WW1 trench gun with all the right marks in the right places including the proper marking on the heat shield. It was also a solid frame 1897 in the proper serial number range. And, damn it, one of the best condition ones I have seen yet, I wish I owned that one.

The second 1897, feel into the WW2 class, if guns could talk, my god the stories that 97 could tell. I know this much about it, it came out of Vietnam. So, this 97 was the classic Model 1897/model 12 take down receiver, that magazine tube was the proper length for a take down, but the holes at the end of the tube were that of the solid frame 97, not a take down. IE, it is the proper tube and was never machined for the take down mechanism that sits at the end of the tube. The barrel had the proper markings and did not show the tell tale notch under the barrel of ever having a take down assembly, again, the proper original military barrel. All the proper marking are on the receiver, barrel and heat shield. But, to bring tears, the stock had to be refurbished as it was in a sad state and if there were inspectors stamps, they ain't there now! But, hands down an original.

1897 number 3.... well, the butt stock is an original, the markings were not the best I have seen, but they were none the less there and clear, the wood was in very good shape. The barrel showed the tell tale "Ordnance Bomb" on top just forward of the receiver..... so, time to back track. The owner was told when he bought the shotgun, it was a WW1 1897 trench gun refurbished at Winchester after WW2. I mean, its a FREAKEN 1897 Trench Shotgun! Not many people have them and there it is and he now is the proud owner of a WW1 97 refurbished at Winchester after WW2! WOW! Well, as Coyote put it " it's buyer beware on any sale and do your homework before" you buy, but there are 2 major problems here.
#1. OMG there is the gun I want and I REEAALLLYYYY want it! NOW!!!!! If I don't buy it RIGHT NOW, someone else will see it and grab it.
#2. "These units will change hands many times over the years and will surely be passed off or tried to be passed off as the real thing - eventually." Well, the big problem is the scum bags that put these guns together with repro parts on non-original guns and sell them off as originals.
So, here is the question... what is an original 1897 Trench gun worth? Well, IN THE UNITED STATES, I repeat, IN THE UNITED STATES a WW1 1897 Trench gun CAN be worth as much (As of last years listings) $5,500 and a WW2 1897 Trench gun as much as $4,500. A 1897 put together with Repro parts (a REAL winchester in perfect condition) figure on $600.
Well, back to, 1897 number 3. It has an Original barrel and butt with the correct markings, and was listed as a WW1 gun... well it is a take down, wrong serial number range, no Ordnance marking on the receiver, and the magazine tube was that of a take down sporting 1897. And to top it all off, the heat shield is a repro too. The owner was told a story, a lie and unfortunately he never did his homework.

So, to switch guns, Garand in sound, good working condition are now $1,000 guns at a minimum. No one will sell a good working Garand anymore for $600 (Assuming they know what they had and aren't in dire need of money) because Norinco M14/M305 are selling for $400-$600 new. They now look at it as, a Chinese copy is worth $400-$600, well and original US machined/built Garand or even and Italian machined/built (on the WW2 Winchester tooling) is worth realistically a $1000. Well, then there is the problem of supply and demand and there is more demand than supply. From there, you can guess how some people price these things. They guy I bought my second Garand from, he sat me down and told me the different prices he had paid for Garands over the years. I almost walked out in tears thinking of Collectors pack Garands and M14s that Lever offered at one point in time. But, then again, I have a book form 1977 listing the Winchester Model 70 and Remington 700 as being a $135 for the standard model.
 
Like women, beauty, collector appeal, and value are ultimately in the mind of the beholder and there are a lot of definitions of what this is. It all gets back to originality and condition I suppose. Those who have served in the Army and spent time in the field have an idea of just what kinds of use, abuse, care and neglect that a rifle goes through in the hands of troops.

You take an arsenal fresh rifle and then expose it to field use which will inflict numerous dings, gouges, parts breakage and deformation, wood/metal finish loss and scratches as a result of climbing in/out of vehicles, going to ground to take up a firing position, pieces banging together or being dropped. Stocks will dry out or perish from exposure to sand, dirt, mud, rocks, and moisture. Bores will also suffer from improper cleaning under field conditions and the inner workings will get fouled with sand and dirt and wear prematurely. In short, a rifle is a soldier's tool and, like any other tool, it will become worn and damaged through use-except, of course, if it is issued to the CO's batman or squirreled away in the CQMS's vehicle. Some barrels will be bent as a result of being driven over by vehicles or other abuse.

Small arms maintenance beyond the individual soldier is done at several echelons of maintenance with small minor repairs/parts changes/adjustments done at battalion level and more complicated repairs being done at echelons further to the rear ending at a depot or arsenal where more involved jobs like metal/wood refinishing and re-barrelling are performed. If you take a look at the arsenal/depot level rebuild flow chart for the Garand rifle it shows just why original rifles are so hard to find. On arrival at an arsenal the rifle is basically stripped down to a barreled receiver with all parts going for inspection and/or refinishing, after which, they wind up junked or in a common parts bin along with new parts on hand. Should the barrel prove to be unserviceable it is also removed and replaced after the receiver is refinished. When the barreled receiver is refinished and inspected it then goes to an assembly line where it is rebuilt by drawing parts out of the bin with no consideration of matching parts by maker to the receiver. Any and all parts made by any of the 4 US makers and 2 Italian makers were totally interchangeable and were used this way. To complicate things even further, there were other replacement parts made and marked by other users such as the Germans and the Danes.

The major efforts of Springfield Armory from 1945 to 1950 were devoted to overhauling massive numbers of rifles which were sent back from overseas after WW2 and to manufacturing repair parts to support this process. Springfield didn't produce any new rifles until the closing months of the Korean War. The US Army also contracted with the Belgian FN works to repair and overhaul large numbers of rifles post- WW2. Very few Garand rifles escaped some degree of parts replacement and /or overhaul during the nearly 25 years that they were in first line service by the US Army. Possibly the best bet to locate something close to an original Garand is to look at the post-WW2 rifles made by Springfield, IHC, and HRA which spent less time in service and had less exposure to use and the vagaries of maintenance and overhaul. Some of the HRA rifles which came back from Greece thru the US CMP are in this category.

Personally, I find a rifle that is worn, dinged and nasty looking to be quite unappealing, kind of like my taste in women. Some indications of honourable service are OK though. Some may like the well used, neglected, and unkempt look of an old floosie though, and they are welcome to them.
 
Claven2 said:
If there is NEVER another garand import, I'll eat my hat ;) They always turn up in small-ish lots ever 5 or 6 years or so, then the price nosedives for 2-3 years before edging back up.

Show of hands - how many people would pay $1800 on the EE for a reparked and boyded-up M1 if originals in serviceable but used shape showed up tomorrow at P&S for, say, $1000 each? Is a Boyd's stock and a park job worth $800 to you?
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The show of hands is very small who would pay $1800. ;) More money than brains is the one with their hands up!

Restoration is really just Humping these objects for Profit. Some of these guys have full time jobs doing this.

Now if you take a German Helmet, repaint it and "artificially age" it, and put SS decals on it. Or a fake Camo paint job on a German Helmet.
Someone is getting burnt. In fact there are 1000% more Camos now then there ever was in WW2!

Same story with the rifles and pistols.

You have to ask yourself:

Now why aren't they putting their Company Name on the Restored Rifle/Pistol with a "Clearly Visible" Stamp in Several Places to show it has been restored???? ====>$$$$$$$$$$ ======> You know the Score!

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm! The Art of Deception? $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

It doesn't matter what the object is, Faking and Humping is alive and well in the collector market.
 
In the realm of Garands you can find re-pop parts for the early gas trap rifles. Some of these are so marked. Other than that, there are so many parts in circulation that it really wouldn't be worth turning out repros. In fact, turning out a part like a repro bolt or operating rod would cost far more than the original. Stocks are a whole other kettle of fish though. You can buy any type of cartouche stamp nowadays. I see that the CMP is applying a distinctive CMP stamp to their stocks so that folks understand what they are. Some folk buy any cartouche stamp and then apply them to their new Boyds stocks. They look too good to be true though. One thing about stock cartouches; they were only applied at time of manufacture or by an arsenal overhaul facility. Many replacement military stocks were installed at lower levels and have no markings at all. There are still a lot of very nice looking Garand stocks in circulation with some very unique, military-type markings. The are known as "wardors", a contraction of the name of an ex-USMC armorer who dreamed them up and applied them with the aim of boosting their appeal to a buyer.

Folks should be careful about military stock repairs and re-finishing. Here the old idea of less is more often applies. Quite often a good cleaning and application of linseed or tung oil is all you need. Some time ago I got a genuine HRA stock in otherwise nice, sound shape that someone had sanded to perdition, removed the original markings and then applied a glowing, commercial type finish. Sadly, they had sanded the top surface of the stock to the point that it could never fit a rifle again. Military stocks were often sanded or scraped to the point that original stampings were obliterated. You will see several arsenal type repairs on Garand stocks, incl gluing hardwood shims to the bottom of the trigger housing seats, glass bedding these same areas, running headless brass screws into the side wall around the clip latch cutout to stop cracks and again using headless brass screws to stop cracks at the rear part of the "U" beneath the rear of the receiver heel. You can also find walnut biscuit repairs and brass screws in the handguards. Gouges were filled with wood dough and/or shellac sticks.

Military stocks were not sanded with fine sandpaper, nor was the grain raised prior to oiling. Garand stocks were initially treated by immersion in pure tung oil and then kept conditioned with raw linseed oil (RLO). RLO was also stipulated for in-service conditioning of M1903 Springfield, Model 1917 Enfield, M1 Carbine and British Enfield stocks. Linseed is a derivative of the flax plant and was widely available. This, plus the fact that it is a good preservative, is why most armies used it on rifle stocks. Boiled linseed was not used. It contains a drying agent and can produce a lovely sheen if applied and rubbed in thin applications over time. It looks good, but isn't a military stock finish.

Where the chicanery enters all of this is when folks do restoration work and then choose to portray it as original military work with the idea of boosting their profits on a sale. Restoration work should be declared so that the purchaser knows exactly what he is getting. After that it's up to folks to decide where and how to spend their money.
 
Of all the Garands that I have seen over the last six months, none were cheaper than $1600.00 and it was really beat up. If you are not in a hurry, one of the best sources I know of for a NICE Garand would be to contact member BILLYBOB. He tends to specialize in Garands and I have only seen nice onces coming from him. I absolutly love mine ! Well worth the time to contact him !
 
James River guns seemed to have set the value for nice original danish guns. They were built for the Garand shooter market. Since most of the danish m1 and m1d guns were turned into parts kits for the US market. Nice original danish guns will always increase in value, since these guns came here in the 1990's. There are a few very nice original US Gvt re-builds which came in the danish m1 garand rifle deal here in Canada. These guns were not issued by the danes. I sorted the Lever guns and bought a few of them, no danish anchor markings at all.
 
The nice thing about the ex-Danish rifles is that they maintained very good technical control of their small arms, plus the fact that the Danish rifles never went through combat. I`ve owned and handled a lot of these and never saw a receiver with any pitting on it.

Here are a few ways to ID a Danish rifle;

-if the receiver is made by Breda or Beretta and has a crown and FKF stamping on the rear heel of the receiver. These were made by the 2 Italian firms on contract for Denmark.
-stocks are stamped with the rifle serial number on the bottom to the rear of the grip. Rifles in use by the Danish navy will have an inventory number(not the rifle serial number) and an anchor device engraved(not stamped)on the rear sight cover.
-stocks may also contain the Danish targetting sticker glued inside the forend channel.
-stocks may also have a circular cuttout for a metal unit marking disc on the bottom of the grip.
-rifles may contain some Danish made parts, incl VAR barrels, beechwood stocks and elevation pinions marked VAR.
-US Springfield or Winchester made rifles may also contain some Breda or Beretta parts which are marked with any of the following stamps; PB, BMB, and BMR. These were used by the Danes during the repair or overhaul process. All parts are interchangeable regardless of maker.
-US supplied rifles will either be WW2 vintage Springfields or Winchesters. The US supplied these rifles to the Danes in the 1950-51 period before production started on the post-war IHC, HRA, or Springfield rifles in the 4M and 5M serial number ranges. That said, I once had a Danish beechwood stock with a serial number in the low 4M range and some HRA or IHC parts have turned up indicating that the Danes may have gotten these in parts purchases from US sources.
-some bolts will be marked with a rifle serial number and the sn will not match the receiver. The Danes numbered their Garand bolts to the rifles, but when they exported them, bolts were removed and shipped separately. A friend who assisted with processing the rifles at Lever Arms told me that there was a need to fit bolts to each rifle to verify proper headspace before sale. All he did was fit the first bolt that headspaced properly with no regard to markings.

Among others, I did get an early 1942 Springfield out of Lever`s with it`s original barrel gauging 301 at the muzzle and 302 at the throat. It was in immaculate condition with lockbar sights (still peened on the end of the pinion shaft), an early narrow base gas cylinder, crisp Raritan Arsenal overhaul stamps on the replacement stock, and the Danish Navy inventory number and anchor inscribed on the rear sight cover. No serial number on the stock though. I believe that this was a Danish Army thing, and that the navy used the markings on the rear sight cover instead of the stock stamping. It had a mis-numbered bolt which I swapped out for a new one that matched the overall as-new appearance of the rifle. No Italian or Danish made parts on it at all. In every way this struck me as a fresh Raritan Arsenal rebuild that went to the Danish Navy, got the naval `tatoo`, and then sat unused in a crate until being sold off in the 1990s. I saw pics of a similar one on this forum a couple of yrs ago. My friend at Lever`s also reported on seeing some unissued looking Breda and Beretta rifles which were all original except for their bolts.
 
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