German 308 surplus

[zupermann]

I've heard this but hoped that the actual samples (M-14's)being accepted are much better than that as my Ak's are more accurate than this

 

[zupermann]

A milspec m14 shoots 4 and 1/2 inches to 5 and 1/2 inches to be accepted by the army. A tuned norc will shoot 2 inches with the same nato ammo at a hundred. Did you tune yours ? Harmonics is EVERYTHING -----
{I used to get trash groups with S/A in some of my norcs - others in different tune states love it }

see above

 

[cancer]

A milspec m14 shoots 4 and 1/2 inches to 5 and 1/2 inches to be accepted by the army. A tuned norc will shoot 2 inches with the same nato ammo at a hundred. Did you tune yours ? Harmonics is EVERYTHING -----
{I used to get trash groups with S/A in some of my norcs - others in different tune states love it }

I got it used, I assume it was tuned. But that said, I don't want to re-tune it for SA surplus. The stuff is very inconsistent, and I prefer to have it tuned to my hunting loads, as they shoot sub MOA.

 

[buckshot]

I just picked up a battlepack of this german surplus from Milarm today. I was surprised to be told it was german but once I cut open the pack sure enough its German.

Price was $140 for the 200 round battle pack.


Markings on the ammo boxes are as follows.

AB22
20 Patrone,
7,62 mm X 51, DM 111,
Weichkern

Nato symbol?


LOS DAG93B0310


I was about to post here asking if anyone knew anything about it but it appears that others have seen/heard of it.

If I get out this weekend I will post some feedback on it.

 

[OneBarfly]

Huh...Interesting ammo

Below was stolen from another web site:

http://www.afte.org/forum/smf1/index.php?topic=1574.75

"7.62 NATO FMJBT, cupro-nickel clad steel jacket, lead core, smooth crimp cannelure from Metallwerk Elisenhütte G.m.b.H., Nassau, Lahn, Germany. Lot imported for the US commercial market, available by Midway USA, June, 2008. Brass case, brass percussion berdan primer, green primer sealant, 3-stab primer crimp. Headstamp (NATO symbol) "MEN 94B0008" (Headstamp includes lot number, indicating February 1994 production.) Bullet design is AB22 whose terminal ballistic performance in tissue is unique from most other 7.62 NATO FMJBT Ball bullet designs. Rather than pitching up 90 degrees, then pitching backwards another 90 degrees and exiting backwards, AB22 pitches up 90 degrees then breaks into two parts at the cannelure, similar in performance to M193 5.56 NATO Ball. Packaged 20 rounds to a tan cardboard box with white label and black printing "AB22 20 Patrone 7.62mm DM111 Weichkern LOS MEN94B0008." Packages had been opened & resealed with thin white paper label with blue printing "MMunDp6." 10 cardboard boxes to an olive drab plastic "battle pack," with white label & same markings. Battle Packs have been opened and resealed with olive drab duct tape."

 

[mhenn1965]

Just got a case of the above ($525/1000). It's as described in Buckshots' post (above #24). It has the NATO symbol and headstamp "DAG93B0310" on it. Mine came in intact (not resealed) battlepacks of 200. The heavy paper boxes inside were also intact (not resealed).
Areas of the brass casing which had been in (long term) contact with the cardboard packaging showed surface blemishes/light corrosion of the brass surface (seen mainly on the case neck). This was easily swiped off with fine steel wool and didn't extend beyond the surface of the brass. Apparently, over time the brass casing reacted with the "acidic" paper/cardboard packing. One would think that the Germans would've known better and use "acid free" paper! I've been assured that this is safe to shoot, although not the cleanest/shiniest stuff I've seen. May relegate this to plinking use as opposed to use in my more pricey rifles. Will just have to shoot it and find out 4 sure.
I recall reading in "Soldier of Fortune" magazine many years ago the unique tumbling/fragmenting properties of the German AB22 bullet (confirmed by OneBarfly's post #25), and that out of all the .308 Ball available, this was the most lethal.

 

[zupermann]

Saw an ad a couple of weeks ago in "Canadian Access...." for German surplus .308. (approx $525/1000) Has anyone tried it yet?

Well, it looks like I get to answer my own question! Got delivery in mid Nov., The supplier had apparently already sold out before I could call for a second shipment. I took your advice (mhenn1965) and used fine steel wool to polish out the burnished/corroded areas. Got all the ammo out of those "acidic" storage boxes before more harm is done.

Anyway, At the end of a 3 hr range session (-8 C) with swirling 15 kph wind at 100M. I tried this stuff in two bolt action rifles: #1 Isreali K-98 (60 yr old reciever, VG condition barrel)...three, 3 shot groups (original iron sights) of 1.67"., 1.77"., and 2.11" This was from a benchrest, front and rear sandbags. I did a prone group with sling tension only (just to see the difference the position makes) and got 2.2".
#2 rifle was one of Marstar's Australian Enfields (full wood model)..no time to mount a scope so was also shot stock iron sights per above. Three, 3 shot groups of 1.62"., 1.18"., and 1.05". Needless to say, I decided to quit while I was ahead!! HEIL to German ammo supremacy!

 

[zupermann]

Extra info Re: the German AB-22 Bullet on this ammo as noted previusly

This bullet has a distinct silver color (the steel jacket). WARNIN These will have no effect on werewolves, as these really aren't made of silver.
The base of the bullet has a brass colored plug (?). The jacket must be a mild steel as I was able to cut off the tip of the bullet with the wirecutter part of my pliers. I did this to examine the core, which is lead.
One question is raised: All/most cleaning products are designed for copper jacketed/tombac bullets, so are special cleaners needed ? (I've never heard of any), or do conventional cleaning agents cover "mild steel" jackets as well?

 

[Joel]

To echo what OneBarFly and mhenn were saying previously, the old Ammo Oracle .223 website used to have pictures of recovered German 7.62 shot into gelatin. Or rather, pictures of a big chunk of jacket and lots of little pieces of lead and copper.

Terminally speaking it looks impressive.

I think the archived site is still out there.

 

[mhenn1965]

Oracle 223 site, eh? Well, I'll look into it. I shot this stuff with my old man's Husquavarna with 4 x scope. It looks like an average of approx 1.6" three shot grps. I wonder if anyone has any left anywhere.
Zupermann, it's been driving me crazy, I think I may have seen you around or met you once or twice. I'd like to ask you a question or two to find out 4 sure. I tried PM'ing you but can't get thru for some reason. Did you run or help out with running some competitions in the edmonton area? Do you work in the health field?
You can PM me if you don't feel like broadcasting this info here.

 

[zupermann]

Did you run or help out with running some competitions in the edmonton area? Do you work in the health field?

Yes on both counts! Have you been to one of my matches perhaps?

 

[mhenn1965]

I met you several years ago at a service rifle/handgun event at a range located by St Albert. My girlfriend and I were gonna enter when one of the guys running it made a crude remark to her. I wasn't there at the time but when I found out about it I was gonna punch that short little turd in the head. I'm pretty sure you're the guy who talked me out of it and smoothed things over. Everyone else seemed oblivious to what was going on.
The reason I ask about the health field is that before my old man (ex-Army) died, he was in the hospital for some time. He told us about one of his caregivers being a service rifle nut who regularly competed in the area. He enjoyed the gun talk in the overwhelmingly female enviroment He also appreciated your being able to get him into his wheelchair often(after he lost use of his legs from the tumor) so he can get out of that room he was in. The girls there just didn't/couldn't move him as well or as often as the few men there could. Him and my mom got your name from your tag, and sent you all a card after his transfer. I never did meet you while he was there.
I last saw you running a match at Sherwood Park couple years ago. Watched the event for a while and went home. Should've introduced myself but you looked like you had your hands full.
I haven't seen anymore of these matches advertised anywhere. Are you still doing them?

 

[zupermann]

]I met you several years ago at a service rifle/handgun event at a range located by St Albert. My girlfriend and I were gonna enter when one of the guys running it made a crude remark to her. I wasn't there at the time but when I found out about it I was gonna punch that short little turd in the head. I'm pretty sure you're the guy who talked me out of it and smoothed things over.

I remember you now....I can't recall if it was before or after that incident which I mentioned to him that such comments, even if meant to be funny or complimentary (his defense) isn't good for making positive impressions of the shooting sports....we wonder why we can't get more women out
Being that I wasn't on his best buddy list, he basically dismissed what I had to say. In retrospect, sometimes I feel I should've let you do what you wanted to do....it would certainly have made him see the error of his ways much sooner! In the end, however, we can't have brawls at "fun" events

g​

. He told us about one of his caregivers being a service rifle nut who regularly competed in the area. He enjoyed the gun talk in the overwhelmingly female enviroment. He also appreciated your being able to get him into his wheelchair often(after he

Thank you for your kind words My private messaging is working now (it had been de-activated somehow), So before we get too sappy and teary-eyed for all to see, e-mail me and tell me who you are!

l

I last saw you running a match at Sherwood Park couple years ago. Watched the event for a while and went home. Should've introduced myself but you looked like you had your hands full.
I haven't seen anymore of these matches advertised anywhere. Are you still doing them?

[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately not. I can live with the varying levels of amatuer behaviour i.e. everyone makes errors, no one can foresee everything that can go wrong when planning something. I've certainly made my share of oversights....and learn from them. But the thing that really turned me off is the blatant UNPROFESSIONAL behaviour from people who were 10, 20, 30 years older than I (just see above for one example). Which only goes to show that not all fools die young I'm also tired of all the QRD's (Quick Reaction Dicks)-- Guys who take offense/go ballistic at anything whether it be real or imagined (MOSTLY IMAGINED). Having zero communication skills doesn't help solve stuff either. I figure if I want to deal with temper tantrum kids, I'll go work in a daycare! Once I regenerate, maybe I'll get into it again. From the arrogant know-it-all beside me at the range or behind the gun counter, to the petty types who run the local/regional fish and game/gun clubs like their own little fiefdoms, I've had it for now with these types. I'm not optimistic things will change human nature being what it is. As shooters, we are degenerating with the rest of society, maybe just at a slower rate however.

 

[Wally]

Wow, I'm in the market for ammo and would sure love a case of this stuff. Is there any left anywhere? For those of you who got it, how much was shipping?

You're right ! Nuthin' wrong with the SA stuff, esp. if u break it down into components or if u "mexican match" the stuff! BUT....I found it to be a bit over-rated. Cheaper surplus stuff shot as well or better (in most cases) in my experience both as is ( in my battle rifles), or when I mexican matched the stuff in my precision rifles. The advantage over most surplus was it was boxer primed.
Zupermann, your instinct is right, Can. Gun Nutz rulez say u can't post a business name/# etc., that doesn't sponsor Can. Gun nutz. So even if you had the direct info to give this guy (1barfly) the administrator may screen/shut u down. Is enforcement that strict? who knows, but why risk sanctions. I hope u stay on that guy's ignore list...it means more ammo for the rest of us HA HA HA . Serious shooters should get a subscription to canadian access as it's the best non-online classified in Kanada.
I know of the ammo you speak of as I have the ad in front of me. I ordered 2 k rounds and will let u all know when I try it out, which by the time my cheque clears/delivery---would be about a month i figure. to da lo!

Actually, the rules say you can't HOTLINK to competing dealers... They don't say anything about not being able to post details and locations.

 

[zupermann]

Wally;2756020]Wow, I'm in the market for ammo and would sure love a case of this stuff. Is there any left anywhere? For those of you who got it, how much was shipping?

I think it worked out to just over $35/case from the Centre of the Universe (Toronto) This stuff is a pain to sand out the blemishes but's worth it.
The guy who brought it in initially seemed really bummed out because all the hassle of bringing in the German .308 and the 8mm Mauser (Yugo), and then apparently having trouble selling it all (to various businesses) once he got it here for what he wanted. So, he advertised in "Canadian Access". Called him that same day...the 8mm was all gone.....shortly after I see 8mm Mauser advertised on Milarm's website! Looks like they bought it all at a pretty good (for them) markup!
I was out-of-country for a couple weeks, called him about getting more .308, sounded like he was in negotiation to sell/export? the remaining lot at once. Once again, this stuff shows up on Milarms site for $150/1000 more than this guy wanted. I don't know if they got it all or not, but I haven't seen any other Canadian business advertise it. And sadly, Milarm is sold out (since mid/late November):
I don't know if his e-mail is still active. As for the rules, I'll take your word for it. Try this: ammosales @ gmail . com
I'm sure he has none left, BUT, maybe we can convince him to bring more in (since he's already familiar with the import process) on a prepaid basis or something.

Before this thread dies, I want to try this stuff in a semiauto and report back, as theoretically, un-uniformed surfaces on the brass could cause extraction/ejection problems. Although I don't see how if one sands the blemished areas "smooth as a baby's bottom" with the steel wool treatment!
Even though this has the NATO spec symbol on it, one never knows! The British Radway-Green 5.56 (with the Nato spec symbol on it) wasn't strong enough to cycle the US army's M-16's! So a furhter test is in order.
Unfortunately, we're heading into a recession. So even if this ammo isn't avaiable commercially anymore, people who have this maybe forced to sell
For those who can buy, it's worth knowing how it performs

 

[Wally]

Thanks Zuppermann, I'm gonna send him an email.

 

[ipscgraz]

[QUOTEbrass percussion berdan primer][/QUOTE]

I kinda lost interest in it now...

 

[zupermann]

Before this thread dies, I want to try this stuff in a semiauto and report back, as theoretically, un-uniformed surfaces on the brass could cause extraction/ejection problem

s. [/QUOTE]

I tried this stuff in a DPMS .308 heavy barrel semi auto rifle. (this is basically an AR-15 in .308 cal for those unfamiliar). Extraction and ejection in this rifle with this ammo showed no problems. Recommend keeping in air tight containers as previously reported blemished areas showed evidence of corroding again when left out for as little as 3 weeks. The stuff I had in air tight storage was totally OK.
As an aside, I'm always looking for inexpensive practice/match ammo. I took some of these rounds and pulled the AB-22 (german Ball) bullet off and replaced it with a match bullet of similar weight, to an OAL which has worked well in the past. All other components unchanged (powder charge, brass, etc). Just off with the old bullet and slapped on the new one. Got a 3 round average of 1.01" in the above rifle.
A good test would be in one of the non-restricted m-14 series rifles (Norinco M-305 or Springfiled M1A), as these (unfortunately) are virtually the only 762 x 51 battlerifles available to Canadians (SEE NOTE BELOW)and would therefore make sense to test one. One has to be thorough, no?
NOTE: An important court date is approaching regarding the use of being able to take 12(5) rifles out of your house and to the shooting range once again. This catagory includes the "other" 308 battle-rifles such as the FN-FAL types and HK/G-3 series and a host of other military style semi-autos. Hopefully, those of you whom own these will be once again allowed to actually fire them (legally), as the "authorities" chose not to allow this to happen after "re-interpreting" the regulations in 2005. The date is Jan 6, the case is being handled by CSSA. They deserve your help.

 

[zupermann]

2772080][

QUOTEbrass percussion

berdan primer]

I kinda lost interest in it now...

[/QUOTE[/QUOTE]

Yeah, it's a bummer that we are very limited in what we have available in this country. We haven't fully recovered from when Century Arms left Kanada after figuring it was just too much hassle doing business here back in the mid 1990's. They had a lot of surplus, mind you the International market was a more open than now.
On the upside, things are slowly getting better.

 

[mhenn1965]

[[

QUOTE]QUOTE=zupermann; As an aside, I'm always looking for inexpensive practice/match ammo. I took some of these rounds and pulled the AB-22 (german Ball) bullet off and replaced it with a match bullet of similar weight, to an OAL which has worked well in the past. All other components unchanged (powder charge, brass, etc). Just off with the old bullet and slapped on the new one. Got a 3 round average of 1.01" in the above rifle

.

Just for curiosity, what was the accuracy of the unmodified ammo in the DPMS rifle?