German mg 08 help with markings

OK heres some more, you got the mojo working tonight

this is seperate to the unit designate but basically the high command of the Imperial German army saw the value of the Machine gun in front line formations, independant M.G. units were set up to capitalize on their strategic effectiveness. Beginning in april of 1916 maschinengewehr-Scharfschutzen-Trupp ( M.G.Ss.T.) numbers 1 to 200 were organized and set up as M.G. company strength

You will note the T at the end of M.G.Ss.T. in relation to your stated unit mark, this has a whole new meaning, these sharpshooters after having been selected into the M.G.Ss.T. received additional intensive training and were authorized to wear a sleeve patch on their left sleeve consisting of a MG-08 surrounded by an oval cartridge belt.

This is a grey patch of woven material on a felt background--be very carefull if you find one of these patches for sale as most are fakes, In september-october 1916 most of these M.G,Ss.T. were reformed into Maschinengewehr-Scharfschutzen-Abteilungen M.G.Ss.A. from the old truppe regiments numbered 1-62, the remainder of the M.G.Ss.A. were sent to infantry regiments.

Now you can see the importance of what I was trying to tell you earlier about checking your unit marked MG-08, Smellie is still bang on with his overall meaning but due to the fact your MG-08 was manufactured in 1917 it will be impossible to ascertain whether the Machinegun was a replacement for the earlier truppe MG-08 formations set up in 1916 and if in fact the machinegun unit that used your MG-08 was one of the sleeve designated special units.

Hope you are now severly confused as I am starting to see double. My opinion is that your MG-08 was a new purchase when the M.G.Ss.T changed to an Abteilungen unit late 1916 early 1917.

Thanks for giving the opportunity to do a bit of digging in my old notes and personal archives plus some very good data provided by a top notch unit mark researcher Jeff Noll.
 
Thanks for all the imput Imerial Luger. I am starting to get confused though. This is all way more info than I thought I'd get and am very happy to know the history of the gun.
I'm gonna see if I can get a good picture of that marking for you.
 
After giving it a little cleaning over the hand stamped markings it looks to me like it's a 19 istead of an 18. Not sure what difference that might make but heres a pic.
5328676377_8b2ee6609b.jpg
 
Griz

I'd bet money that you are looking at a 3 not a 9, if a 13 which would be part of the 5th J.D., if a 19 then part of the 39th infantry Division--39.J.D.

The Germans used an J for infantry, sprinkle a bit of dry flour on the top of the mark then very gently brush over with a soft brush-- womens makeup brush works fine. blow the rest of, no steel wool.

We'll figure this out then I will be able to tell you the major battles the respective divisions were embattled in. It would be nice if the MG talked but not the case, this way you will get a glimpse into the MG-o8's battle history.

Let me know if you wish to continue as it gets more involved, this is the beauty of researching German unit marks, you either like it or not.

If the moderators feel it is to long of a post then we will cease.
 
HOW can something this intriguing possibly be too long?

Thanks to Imperial Luger, it looks as if we might be able to track this critter's actual battle duty!

BUFFDOG and I have been doing much the same for a batch of Ross Rifles for the past 4 or 5 months and all I can say is that the more you dig, the more you learn, so the more you dig and you learn more and so you dig a bit deeper......

This gun has taken its time..... more than 90 years...... but it is talking again at last.
.
 
Imperial luger said:
Griz

I'd bet money that you are looking at a 3 not a 9, if a 13 which would be part of the 5th J.D., if a 19 then part of the 39th infantry Division--39.J.D.

The Germans used an J for infantry, sprinkle a bit of dry flour on the top of the mark then very gently brush over with a soft brush-- womens makeup brush works fine. blow the rest of, no steel wool.

We'll figure this out then I will be able to tell you the major battles the respective divisions were embattled in. It would be nice if the MG talked but not the case, this way you will get a glimpse into the MG-o8's battle history.

Let me know if you wish to continue as it gets more involved, this is the beauty of researching German unit marks, you either like it or not.

If the moderators feel it is to long of a post then we will cease.
Click to expand...

You could be right about the number I can't say for sure. I'v been looking at it though magnifying glasses trying the flower ect but there really isn't any depression more than you can see in the picture. But there is a deffinet little hook on the bottom of the number which I would tend to think it's a 9 but I'm not sure maybe it would be possible to look at the numbers from other guns to see the stamp design?
Oh and while I was looking so closely I noticed there is another single hand stamped number 5 under the 1 komp
5
Like that.
This is accually getting really interesting. And I would really love to learn about what battles it fought in and so on.
 
wheaty said:
A bit more info on your gun. It was captured in actions during August 26, 27 and 28 of 1918, N.W. of Villers-lez-Cagincourt and sent to the Moose Jaw Sask. Legion as a war trophy. Sorry, don't know who captured it but will try and find out. :)##
Enjoy
Click to expand...

I was wondering if where you found this info it might be able to tell us what that number would be? A 3 or a 9?
 
Griz 327

In the next few days I will be going through all the German divisional information I have to see if either the 5th division or the 39th makes reference to a sharpshooter formation.750 pages of info so it will take some reading.

It will most likely be a process of elimination finding out which division had your unit marked MG-08 attached if we can not establish the Abt. number correctly.

The # 5 that is under the Komp-1 would be the waffe Nr. or the weapon number in English, this would be the 5th weapon in the company, not neccessarily the 5th MG-08.

As a side note some of the old dies in the armorers chests wore out and did not completely strike the full number, I looked into the possibility that the Abt. number could have been a 10 instead of 13 or 19, we hit pay dirt right away, the MGSSAbt.10 was part of the 10th reserve division and it definetly shows the MGSSAbt 10th attached to this division.
 
Imperial luger said:
Griz 327

In the next few days I will be going through all the German divisional information I have to see if either the 5th division or the 39th makes reference to a sharpshooter formation.750 pages of info so it will take some reading.

It will most likely be a process of elimination finding out which division had your unit marked MG-08 attached if we can not establish the Abt. number correctly.

The # 5 that is under the Komp-1 would be the waffe Nr. or the weapon number in English, this would be the 5th weapon in the company, not neccessarily the 5th MG-08.

As a side note some of the old dies in the armorers chests wore out and did not completely strike the full number, I looked into the possibility that the Abt. number could have been a 10 instead of 13 or 19, we hit pay dirt right away, the MGSSAbt.10 was part of the 10th reserve division and it definetly shows the MGSSAbt 10th attached to this division.
Click to expand...

forgive me it's early. So you figure it's a 10? And how can we be sure?
 
griz
, I'm not 100% sure if it is a ten to be honest, just kept trying to visualize the photo better bearing in mind that dies do get worn, Some lugers from Erfurt for example show up with a broken part of the Imperial crown. my initial thought is still a 13, couldn't find anything from the MGSSAbt- 19 which is part of the 39th Division untill late last night, No MGSS units showed up for the mobilization of the Division in 1914 so cross referenced a few theorys and the 19th Abt showed up in the late war formation in the 39th Division, I suspect what went on was if you recall an earlier post the MGSs Truppes were reorganized in 1916 into the MGSS-ABt formations, the division then shows a Machine gun Sharpshooters unit attached mid way through the war..

I have collected lugers for many years and always am intrigued by the unit marks, MGSS units are a very hard study as they were constantly evolving with applied tactics as the war progressed.

I could post the battle history of the 19th 13th and the 10th for you if you like. Another way to be certain would be to obtain a map of the captured area/date that Wheaty referred to and backtrack each Division to see which Abteilung unit fits.

My personal preference would be to study the unit mark from your end with a quality lens, you get to see the real thing up close in hand and are better situated to make the correct call respecting the Abt number..
 
Hey sorry I'v been on the road for several days with no internet. I guess I can try a little more to figure out what number it it. Maybe mag partical or something maybe a little microscope. But I won't be able to for a little while as I'm down south till the middle of the month. I am very interested in the battle history of the gun so I'll do what ever I can.
 
Just picked up a backsight for a MG08, complete with slide. If you have the gun, PM me.

You'll have to tell me the the serial number to prove you have it though!
 
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