German SIG vs USA SIG

according to you there would be differences in the finish of the gun as well?
that can be interesting.

dizzy said:
Tolerance issues create failures. You may not have come across failures, that does not mean they don't exist, like I mentioned check with the warranty departments of sig USA and sig DE, that info will confirm what I'm saying. You may need privilege to get the numbers, regardless they are there. I'm not saying US made sig's are junk I'm saying German made sig's are better. I'd still rather own a US sig than many other makes.
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misanthropist said:
I have been hearing recently - and this is entirely rumour, although it is being rumoured among people with a much higher knowledge level than normal gun owners - that the MK25 gets a different QC treatment than standard.

Again that is a rumour I keep hearing recently from well-informed people but if true, your experience is perhaps not surprising.

In general I prefer the German guns as the QC was third-party and rigorous the way only Germans can make a procedural formality. SIG USA's QC is not so hot.

Additionally, parts are not all from Germany...small parts were in many cases farmed out by Ron Cohen to the same Israeli suppliers that made parts for the later, cheaper Kimbers (unsurprising if you're familiar with Cohen's resume). Those Israeli MIM shops then farmed out some of their work a step further, to India.

To be fair though the issues that I'm familiar with didn't actually arise from the use of MIM parts. They were mostly assembly issues that would have been caught if SIG USA test fired their guns, which at least for a while they completely stopped doing.

That said, the P226 is a hell of a robust design and I would take a US 226 that had been dragged behind a truck for five miles over 90% pistols if I wanted to gamble on a fighting gun. And I don't like DA/SA guns.
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Yes.

To the guy who claims his MK25 shoots better than his German sig... how? The only difference between the MK25 and any other Sig is the salt water treatment (anti corrosion on internals) and more thorough hand inspection. A regular Elite is just as good unless you plan to submerse it in the pacific for several months.

As misanthropist has stated the next big difference is the use of MIM, which is in itself not a big deal overall but I will point out that all three of my German sigs (220, 226 and a newly acquired 226 elite that was sent to Germany for full service by the previous owner) had much smoother parts inside. The 220 and 226 elite internals were polished and all parts inside the frame were thoroughly deburred which is probably why the trigger felt so much better (less grit) and the de-cocker is %100 positive compared to the sponge on the Sig USA guns. My american made 226 and 229 had some rough parts inside, but they are still top notch and have never had any performance issues.

As for coatings, if you exclude the "special runs" aka "gimmick" guns, the generic American 226 pistols are hard black anodized compared to the standard treatment on German 226 which are ifilon or nitron (which is what the MK25 slide and frame are treated with) according to sigsauer.de. From what I have read, none of the DE stamped guns come annoed, although they do have other options based on their "art guns" aka gimmiks.

Most Sig USA guns were running german frames with American manufactured slides, however in the past couple of years sig has been moving more and more production to the US to be compliant with their laws. From what I have heard (reading the Sig site), soon US Sigs will be 100% manufactured and assembled in the US.

I let people try my guns back to back, American to German all the time. Every single person, shooters or not, state that they can feel a big difference in trigger and controls in favour of the German made guns.
 
dizzy said:
You couldn't give me a factory refurb, period. I'd toss It in the trash. Materials fatigue and stress overtime and can fail, factory refurb does not fix this. US made sig's are not made to the same standards as German sig. material quality of US parts are inferior, across the board. US made sig's have 127.9 times the failure rate as German made Sig's. check with the warranty departments of both....that is if they will give you the info

doesn't Murdoc still have some German made p226 9mms for sale?

Us made sig's still work but if you have the chance to buy German you have the chance to buy a better pistol.
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I have to question your logic here, the P226 is rather over designed for the job and I have a hard time believing a Sig could be fatiged before it was too sloppy to shoot. If the referb was a rental range gun, it still would have to pass some dimensional testing before it was certified and sold.
 
NavyCuda said:
I have to question your logic here, the P226 is rather over designed for the job and I have a hard time believing a Sig could be fatiged before it was too sloppy to shoot. If the referb was a rental range gun, it still would have to pass some dimensional testing before it was certified and sold.
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You can question my logic all you like, what is not disputable are the facts. Get access and check the warranty departments of sig USA and sig Germany. You would be surprised. As for refurbs you really need to compare the failure rate with factory fresh. Why is the failure rate higher?
 
dizzy said:
You can question my logic all you like, what is not disputable are the facts. Get access and check the warranty departments of sig USA and sig Germany. You would be surprised. As for refurbs you really need to compare the failure rate with factory fresh. Why is the failure rate higher?
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Facts like what?

Do you realize the life span of a pistol and the abuse that it would take in SOCOM/JPD trials and even just training?

The SEALS didn't pick up the Sig because they thought it looked cool. If they put 10K through them a year and trust their life to it, I am pretty sure the police buy back refurbs that probably see a box of ammo for qualification every few years are going to be good enough for a one way range punching paper hahaha.

Not only that, sig is not going to sell an unsafe pistol refurb or new to the public and risk a lawsuit.

I agree with NAVY cuda, the Sigs are completely over engineered. I would pick up a sig with 20K through it and shoot without a hesitation.
 
according to SIG USA Nitron is applied to all the guns, in all the models. What am I missing here?


c0ntract said:
Yes.

To the guy who claims his MK25 shoots better than his German sig... how? The only difference between the MK25 and any other Sig is the salt water treatment (anti corrosion on internals) and more thorough hand inspection. A regular Elite is just as good unless you plan to submerse it in the pacific for several months.

As misanthropist has stated the next big difference is the use of MIM, which is in itself not a big deal overall but I will point out that all three of my German sigs (220, 226 and a newly acquired 226 elite that was sent to Germany for full service by the previous owner) had much smoother parts inside. The 220 and 226 elite internals were polished and all parts inside the frame were thoroughly deburred which is probably why the trigger felt so much better (less grit) and the de-cocker is %100 positive compared to the sponge on the Sig USA guns. My american made 226 and 229 had some rough parts inside, but they are still top notch and have never had any performance issues.

As for coatings, if you exclude the "special runs" aka "gimmick" guns, the generic American 226 pistols are hard black anodized compared to the standard treatment on German 226 which are ifilon or nitron (which is what the MK25 slide and frame are treated with) according to sigsauer.de. From what I have read, none of the DE stamped guns come annoed, although they do have other options based on their "art guns" aka gimmiks.

Most Sig USA guns were running german frames with American manufactured slides, however in the past couple of years sig has been moving more and more production to the US to be compliant with their laws. From what I have heard (reading the Sig site), soon US Sigs will be 100% manufactured and assembled in the US.

I let people try my guns back to back, American to German all the time. Every single person, shooters or not, state that they can feel a big difference in trigger and controls in favour of the German made guns.
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evolture said:
There are dealers with new German made sigs for sale. Buy one of those. theammosource just had a 8% off sale you missed. taxes in it is less than 900 new and delivered. No refurb required.

sig "German made" has a better reputation which means better resale?

Otherwise it is a wash?

I'd hesitate saying German everything is better than American though. A German HK doesn't mean anything to me over an American one.
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Can you point me where. The ammo source is sold out.
 
Are all those prices for refurb?

IIRC TI had (or has) DE stamped 226's for a mint, I do believe theirs are Ifilon (sp?) coated though but if memory serves they were also well into the $2K price tags.
 
c0ntract said:
Facts like what?

Do you realize the life span of a pistol and the abuse that it would take in SOCOM/JPD trials and even just training?

The SEALS didn't pick up the Sig because they thought it looked cool. If they put 10K through them a year and trust their life to it, I am pretty sure the police buy back refurbs that probably see a box of ammo for qualification every few years are going to be good enough for a one way range punching paper hahaha.

Not only that, sig is not going to sell an unsafe pistol refurb or new to the public and risk a lawsuit.

I agree with NAVY cuda, the Sigs are completely over engineered. I would pick up a sig with 20K through it and shoot without a hesitation.
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10K a year LMAO..... its more like 10K amonth ;)
 
If I buy an American made P226R will my #### fall off? :)

Ha ha ha ha hey I lovey E2 grip 226R. I'll never shoot enough 9mm ammo to discover any QC issues? I am trying to get my head around the 2K booolits that many in the SF Crse shoot per day. :D

Cheers
Barney
 
Dsiwy said:
10K a year LMAO..... its more like 10K amonth ;)
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I didn't want to get accused of hyperbole lol

Can we agree that the average sig in military service sees more ammo in a month than most members on here would put through in their lifetime? I think refurbs are fine, especially with how often most police train or qualify lol
 
TacticalTeacher said:
If I buy an American made P226R will my #### fall off? :)

Ha ha ha ha hey I lovey E2 grip 226R. I'll never shoot enough 9mm ammo to discover any QC issues? I am trying to get my head around the 2K booolits that many in the SF Crse shoot per day. :D

Cheers
Barney
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Hey Barney, you would actually notice the differences just holding both pistols in your hand before ever firing a shot.
The finish, the slide smooth fit and feel, the triggers both single and double action smoother, crisp, and a lot of the other features to takedown lever the D Cocker all these things are different when you have both pistols side-by-side to compare. Then, take each pistol apart, that's when your jaw drops. My opinion, of course...
 
c0ntract said:
Are all those prices for refurb?

IIRC TI had (or has) DE stamped 226's for a mint, I do believe theirs are Ifilon (sp?) coated though but if memory serves they were also well into the $2K price tags.
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Yeah, lol, who knows When it comes to them… A couple years ago, When I was buying my SIG XFIVE ALLROUND, they quoted me 2395.00, I Ended up buying it for 1695 from CRAFM, what is understood need not be discussed. F'ing pathetic...
 
SQUAREHEAD1 said:
Yeah, lol, who knows When it comes to them… A couple years ago, When I was buying my SIG XFIVE ALLROUND, they quoted me 2395.00, I Ended up buying it for 1695 from CRAFM, what is understood need not be discussed. F'ing pathetic...
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Some of their prices are great others are baffling... the Sig AR's they are bringing in are $1K more than the others offered here, but they also claim theirs have the Ifilon treatment.

I have to ask on the pistols if anyone else knows the deal on them. I see they are no longer listed on the site so I am wondering whats up.

Also congrats on the X5 Allaround, I want the X5 tactical... along with quite a few others lol.

I do agree with you, I notice the difference in hand between the USA and Germans, I am not saying one is better than the other necessarily, I am saying one is better quality.
 
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