Getting a small milling machine

[tiriaq]

Not many magazines are milled. Or are you referring to making the dies to form magazine parts with a press?



Yes I'm referring to making dies to form magazine parts.Firing pins,extractors and other small parts shouldn't be too difficult to make on small inexpensive equipment or am I missing something?
Rob

With a small lathe and a small mill, firing pins could certainly be made. A little modelmakers mill would likely be fine for extractors.
Generally speaking, with a larger machine, you can do anything that you can do with a smaller one. The reverse isn't true.

 

[BCRider]

Been reading this thread with a great deal of interest.I am interested in making some small parts for firearms,firing pins,extractors,sight parts etc.Magazines also.Don't have any equipment but would appreciate advice on suitable budget machines that would be capable of doing small runs of parts.Magazines might require something a little more heavy duty,not sure.Welcome your comments.
Rob

If you're totally convinced that you'll be happy with ONLY making small parts of that sort then yeah, even the table top machines will do nicely.

As for making the sort of dies needed to form magazine parts you can forget about the table top machines being big enough to machine out the sort of lumps needed to do such a job. Dies of that sort are big bulky affairs intended to withstand the considerable pressure of a heavy stamping press. To do blocks of that sort you'd need something that won't fit on a table top to do it well and to have the room to even mount such a lump along with the sort of vise you need to hold the lump.

There's also the simple fact that the lathe and mill themselves are just the core of a big field of equipment and tooling. The machines are only as good as the vises, cutters, indexing and other jigs, and cutting holders that support them. This support equipment can and will add up to the same cost as the original bare machines over time. So with that sort of investment in cost and time it pays to think ahead and start with a machine which you can "grow into". Otherwise the cost of selling off the small machine and tooling will greatly add to the final eventual cost.

Of course not everyone has the space or money to jump into the mid size or larger options. If this is the case and you still want to at least get started then by all means go ahead. But keep in mind that you don't want to get TOO involved with a small machine right away. Keep it simple and cheap. Later on if you find that the small option is all you need then by all means expand the support tooling for it. Some folks never really do dive in to the bigger stuff and a little setup that let's you make small replacement bits may be all you ever need.

 

[thorslund]

If you're totally convinced that you'll be happy with ONLY making small parts of that sort then yeah, even the table top machines will do nicely.

As for making the sort of dies needed to form magazine parts you can forget about the table top machines being big enough to machine out the sort of lumps needed to do such a job. Dies of that sort are big bulky affairs intended to withstand the considerable pressure of a heavy stamping press. To do blocks of that sort you'd need something that won't fit on a table top to do it well and to have the room to even mount such a lump along with the sort of vise you need to hold the lump.

There's also the simple fact that the lathe and mill themselves are just the core of a big field of equipment and tooling. The machines are only as good as the vises, cutters, indexing and other jigs, and cutting holders that support them. This support equipment can and will add up to the same cost as the original bare machines over time. So with that sort of investment in cost and time it pays to think ahead and start with a machine which you can "grow into". Otherwise the cost of selling off the small machine and tooling will greatly add to the final eventual cost.

Of course not everyone has the space or money to jump into the mid size or larger options. If this is the case and you still want to at least get started then by all means go ahead. But keep in mind that you don't want to get TOO involved with a small machine right away. Keep it simple and cheap. Later on if you find that the small option is all you need then by all means expand the support tooling for it. Some folks never really do dive in to the bigger stuff and a little setup that let's you make small replacement bits may be all you ever need.

I suppose if one was to contract a machine shop to do the dies then make enough magazines and sell some to balance out the cost.Course theres the little matter of a suitable press.No idea what that would cost.Interesting possibilities.
Rob

 

[lejarretnoir]

What most people don't realize is that the small machines are going to chatter very easily. Your ability to hold tolerances .001 and better just went out the door. Repeatability and resetting zero on a mill is very important. Once you loose faith in the machines ability the frustration begins. I've worked in machine shops back in the 70's and later and never saw any of these little mills. As BCRider has pointed out. Don't get too involved with the little mill as you might be upgrading very soon then.

I use a Bridgeport that I reconditioned for small parts because I know it will hold tolerance and produce superb workmanship. Even the 1HP Bridgeport has it's limits though. I would never use it for heavy duty work. I'd consider something bigger in the 3-5HP class.

Here's a pic of my 1 HP 2200lbs mill which I consider using for gunsmithing small parts like bolts and such.

 

[trevj]

Not many magazines are milled. Or are you referring to making the dies to form magazine parts with a press?



Yes I'm referring to making dies to form magazine parts.Firing pins,extractors and other small parts shouldn't be too difficult to make on small inexpensive equipment or am I missing something?
Rob

Yup. You are missing the basic bits of information you need to avoid pounding good money after bad while chasing after the goal of building all those different parts successfully.
You really need to buy or borrow ( public library, friends) some books to get sorted on the machines you will need, what they can be used for, and which tooling you will need to use with them, in order to accomplish what you say you wish to.

For basic lathe work, the South Bend book, How To Run A Lathe, is a good start point. Technology of Machine Tools, by Krar is a good basic how-to and reference for general machining processes. Then you need to get sorted out on sheet metalwork, pressdie manufacture, spot, and other types of welding, spring forming and making, heat treatment...Well, it does go on and on.

The largest problem is going to be the combined learning curves of trying to figure out why the stuff you bought does not result in a part or tool that works for you, both in the machining (which has some very distinct 'gotchas', and in the sheet metal side, which has it's own fine mess of ways to screw up perfectly good stock and turn it into scrap.

It isn't just about having the tools themselves. You need to know what to do with them, what you need to have to be able to do useful work with them, and most importantly, in the case of small and benchtop tools, you need to have a pretty good idea how to make them do what you want them to, when they really were not built to do what you may think they were.

Your stated aims are pretty much a full shelf of very thick books worth of knowledge, all crammed into one little shop space. It can be learned, but it's gonna test you!


Cheers
Trev

 

[BCRider]

Lejarretnoir, you paint a somewhat more bleak picture than I was considering. While I lust after a Bridgeport for myself I've been pleasantly surprised by the work and accuracy I've been able to achieve with my "tuned" mid size mill/drill. I went over it and cut the clearances down and shimmed the column to get as good an accuracy as possible. It's shown up in the work I've done with it.

But it's still far, far from being a "table top" sort of machine. At 500'ish lbs it's not something that can be lifted and put in the closet between jobs....

Even at that sort of weight I admit that I still run into some chatter from time to time. As a result I've found that it works best with the low end of the RPM suggested for steels and I find that I'm best to limit the cutter to around 1/2 to 5/8 inch diameter at most when working with steel or I can run into the very chatter you mentioned. So you're very right in saying that the even lighter machines are at risk of chatter with almost any size of cutter when working with steels.

The point of this is that a big Bridgeport isn't a minimum size. Success can be had in more modest machines. But clearly anything that can be lifted to put it away is pretty much a waste for gunsmithing of any sort.

 

[lejarretnoir]

Yes, it does appear bleak, but even a well scraped in 1HP J-Head Bridgeport can only do so much. Maximum cut from a 2" indexable cutter is about .040 cut at a reasonable speed with 1018 steel on my machine. At .050 chatter develops and the whole house can vibrate. Boring a solid 1" or more drilled hole will also cause chatter. The way around that is the annular cutters. Doing small detailed work on the Bridgeport is so accurate and a joy.

It's all about knowing your machine. You can accomplish work even with the small machines. The question is how much time do you have? What might take me 3 cuts will take you a 100 or more. Boredom is going to weaken even the toughest soul. Besides the average user isn't always capable of detecting runout like you have done by shimming the column. Is the head properly trammed in, spindle bearing play, table gibs adjusted, etc. If nothing else, working with the smaller machines teaches you something about the milling process doing hobby stuff. Have at it.

I remember a thread last year about a guy here using a bench drill press as a small mill. I actually wanted him to succeed! It was an extreme example of using the wrong machine for the job. Holding the workpiece and keeping the machine in one piece became a task that failed utterly in the end.

 

[darxtar]

For removing lots of metal, a horizontal mill is pretty hard to beat. I've a Clausing 8540 and it will happily remove metal at a rate that would destroy a good quality endmill. And generally a used horizontal mill goes for a lot less than a vertical of roughly the same size. New and good used cutters can be had pretty cheap on flea bay also and they last a long time before dulling. . Most old time machinists ( myself not included...except the old part) say that a horizontal will do everything a vertical will do ...plus.