Getting in the AR15 bangwagon

[TW25B]

20" rifle is outdated. 20" rifles are unnecessarily long for maneuvering and offer no ballistic advantage within the point and shoot range of 300m. Even out to 500m, the advantage of 20" tube with the higher velocity is perceptional rather than practical. There is no reason to carry any barrel over 16" , unless it is a free floated match barrel with an optic and ammo combo that can take advantage out to the 600 to 700m envelope. Even the USMC, the institute that has been stubbornly clinging on the traditional rifle idea is going to switch out the M16A4 rifles for M4 carbines in their line infantry units. And the death of 20" rifles had started long time ago when they introduced the 16.5" HK M27 IAR. As a matter of fact, they are teaching the Designated marksman rifle course using the 16" HK IAR now, not with the 20" rifle.

A 14.5" carbine is lighter and much more maneuverable, with no loss of practical precision unless you are pushing the engagement range beyond 500m. For a general purpose firearm, a carbine is the way to go. 20" rifle is more of a nostalgia these days, but not a practical firearm in a conventional format other than shooting at the KD range pointing in one direction.

That is the whole point. Every civilian shooter in Canada is using these on approved ranges and for the most part in KD shooting. Sure one would be better served by a carbine if one was to partake in stuff like 3-gun, but the advantage of the shorter rifle is marginal at best.
The rifle length gas system a 20" rifle and the corresponding extended carbines are far nicer to shoot, with a gas impulse that is enjoyable in contrast to a carbine with a 14.5 or 10ish" barrel.
Since going out of fashion with the tac crowd 20" rifles can be had for very reasonable prices (there are several on the EE now).
Forgoing discussion about ballistics, because for us it is mostly white noise. While I agree wind drift and velocities are mostly a wash, there is still a slight advantage to a 20" rifle at distance.

That's my take.

Greentips is absolutely spot on. A 20" barrel is not optimal for anything and only adds weight. The cost of a 16" carbine or midlength(the smart choice) is equal or lesser than that of a 20" gun. The 16" will do everything the 20" can but it does it at a reduced length and weight which offers you the option of playing in the action shooting disciplines without the handicaps mentioned above. The velocity advantage is not even noticeable for the novice, and hardly an issue for anyone with a greater knowledge and experience level with AR rifles.

Shooting at a KD range does not mean you are shooting at the KD of each berm. Movement forward of the line and targets placed in between KD berms is common and far more fun than trying to use a service rifle as a precision rifle from the bench. Either way, the perceived advantage of the 20" on the KD range has little bearing as most who own and shoot AR's are into the action shooting events and not precision shooting events; Which the AR was not designed for and which is not necessary for action shooting.

Rifle length AR's are dying, and all but dead in the mainstream. 16" is the sweet spot and 14.5" isn't a handicap. As far as brands go and the "buy once cry once" line of thought. Stick with Knights Armament, Noveske, Colt/Colt Canada, Daniel Defense, BCM, LMT as your top line choices. For your good rifles but not superb rifles, Stag is a good choice, Spikes is alright, Palmetto is alright as is Smith and Wesson. Brands that are not so good, Bushmaster is iffy, stay away from Olympic Arms/ SGW, NEA, Dlask, Norinco, Remington, Ruger, and DPMS to name the usual suspects.

TW25B

 

[One Lung Wonder]

Again, it depends. If all you're doing is run 'n' gun you can get by with pretty much anything over 10". If you are going to do the deliberate, slow fire bullseye work, 20" is good and 24" is better. The boys at Camp Perry aren't winning with the stubbies...

Don't suppose it matters though. If you can define what your rifle has to do the configuration will follow that.

 

[TW25B]

Again, it depends. If all you're doing is run 'n' gun you can get by with pretty much anything over 10". If you are going to do the deliberate, slow fire bullseye work, 20" is good and 24" is better. The boys at Camp Perry aren't winning with the stubbies...

Don't suppose it matters though. If you can define what your rifle has to do the configuration will follow that.

Precision shooting with an AR is a very expensive academic adventure as the AR is and was not designed for such a role. KAC and NSW Crane centre have determined that 18.5" is ideal for best accuracy. Barrels that are longer do not improve performance, just saying... Absolutely correct about determining the purpose/use/role of the rifle as the starting point.

TW25B

 

[beltfed]

A 20" barrel is not optimal for anything and only adds weight. The cost of a 16" carbine or midlength(the smart choice) is equal or lesser than that of a 20" gun. The 16" will do everything the 20" can but it does it at a reduced length and weight which offers you the option of playing in the action shooting disciplines without the handicaps mentioned above.

I think you have the cost difference backwards. The SA 20 is cheaper by a few hundred over the SA 15.7.
Good deals can be had in the EE on used as well.
4" of barrel is marginal weight savings, and really not a hinderance when swinging it around in gun games like 3gun.

Anyhow, I'm not going to keep repeating the same message in this thread. As a shooter with two SBRs, six carbines and four rifles, and over two and a half decades shooting them, I think I have a handle on the AR fow. As always ymmv.

 

[Brianma65]

I think you have the cost difference backwards. The SA 20 is cheaper by a few hundred over the SA 15.7.
Good deals can be had in the EE on used as well.
4" of barrel is marginal weight savings, and really not a hinderance when swinging it around in gun games like 3gun.

Anyhow, I'm not going to keep repeating the same message in this thread. As a shooter with two SBRs, six carbines and four rifles, and over two and a half decades shooting them, I think I have a handle on the AR fow. As always ymmv.

I can only shoot paper , where I live , so accuracy is important. Nothing worse than punching circles around the bulls eye . Ive ordered a BRO lower and will build a complete BRO DI AR15. The reviews say it's a 1 MOA gun , with factory ammo.... We,ll see. Didn't mean to quote you, was reading your post when I replied ....

 

[CreamySmooth]

Green tips is on. A basic 16 inch carbine is a go to.

Don't listen to the drivel about the Colt Canada rifles. The only advantage these will ever display is as a safe Queen. When the Colt Canada fans come at you about the fancy barrel buy a Daniel Defence, get the same barrel and better features. I have a plain Jane Colt M4 carbine with Magpul furniture that is my favourite shooter I own out of 4 AR's and lots of parts.... And I'm well past 3000 rounds this year in that gun.

 

[caramel]

Now that my Black Special is free, my 223/556 needs will see a lot more of it, leaving my MK18 and SR15 quieter, i know they are different but 556/223 being not my favorite ( 308 is) the SA will fill that niche ( cant help it the SA is just awesome)... JP.

 

[johNTO]

Hi Folks,

I've been lurking this part of the forum for a while now. I need to make the difficult decision of choosing the right AR15 for me. I've never held one, never shot one.

Or just talk me into buying once and crying once Thanks for the tips

Buy used….there are great deals out there.
I recently picked up an 10.5" LMT Defender 2000 off my buddy for $800…but if I ever sell it has to go back to him. He's never getting it back
It's runs like a top and very tame with Spike's recoil buffer. When I need more "thump" out comes the SA SOCOM 16"….

 

[TacticalTeacher]

All great points here about the 20" and 16" and 14.5" etc etc.
I too started out with ONLY a 20" barrel and I saw GT destroy my scores at 500m while he used a 12" barreled carbine! He's just that good.... I was humbled.

Buy what works for your budget, your shooting needs, your shooting game, your LCV (looks cool value), your ammo supply, etc, etc. It (that boomstick) has to work for you and not us mirror kommandos.

Enjoy the addiction!

Barney

 

[TW25B]

I think you have the cost difference backwards. The SA 20 is cheaper by a few hundred over the SA 15.7.
Good deals can be had in the EE on used as well.
4" of barrel is marginal weight savings, and really not a hinderance when swinging it around in gun games like 3gun.

Anyhow, I'm not going to keep repeating the same message in this thread. As a shooter with two SBRs, six carbines and four rifles, and over two and a half decades shooting them, I think I have a handle on the AR fow. As always ymmv.

Colt Canada(which is simply Colt USA in a different geographical location) is grossly over hyped and over valued. Regardless, a 20" top is fairly difficult to find these days compared to a carbine length top.

I can only shoot paper , where I live , so accuracy is important. Nothing worse than punching circles around the bulls eye . Ive ordered a BRO lower and will build a complete BRO DI AR15. The reviews say it's a 1 MOA gun , with factory ammo.... We,ll see. Didn't mean to quote you, was reading your post when I replied ....

Accuracy in a stock AR of any brand is far from amazing and is but one part of the equation. If you're concerned with accuracy then be prepared to pay a premium for ammo(somewhere in the $1.00/round and up region) and buy lots at a time as it can be very difficult to find. Make sure you budget for an optic of high quality as well as a free float handguard/forend. They can be very accurate, but they don't come out of the box like that. If you build a precision AR then it won't be any good as an action rifle either, as both setups are on opposite ends of the spectrum.

TW25B

 

[Bolivar]

Don't plan to limit yourself to just one AR. Roll with things and buy more to suit varying tastes.

If you "insist" on buying one, or at least want your first to be as versatile as possible, I'd stick to 16 in as a min. Gives you the option of travelling to the US if you need and sacrifices minimally ballistically compared to a 20in or longer. Also somewhat handier to maneuver if you want shoot stuff like 3 gun.

Accessorize as much or as little as you feel you want. Buy the best optic you can afford or justify to yourself. Don't be afraid to experiment. You can always sell stuff you decide is not for you.

Have fun, don't agonize over what is essentially a toy. Just enjoy it.

 

[One Lung Wonder]

Precision shooting with an AR is a very expensive academic adventure as the AR is and was not designed for such a role. KAC and NSW Crane centre have determined that 18.5" is ideal for best accuracy. Barrels that are longer do not improve performance, just saying... Absolutely correct about determining the purpose/use/role of the rifle as the starting point.

TW25B

Is that so?

Hmpfff. Every time I see the photos of the big shoots at Camp Perry the predominating rifle is the AR15 with the big barrels. As far as expensive...I might take exception again. A chit house match rifle starts at what...$2500.00 these days? The pros will pay the best smiths to tweak, tune and smooth them out too...fact is that if you are a match shooter, I think the case could be made that the AR is the cheaper route...but whatever! Whatever gets more shooters in the game is a good thing!

 

[Runningfool]

Have fun, don't agonize over what is essentially a toy. Just enjoy it.

I like this approach. There can be too much hand-wringing over this stuff sometimes.
To the OP: for your first AR go cheap, go expensive, go long, go short...it doesn't really matter - they are all a blast to shoot. Plus in all likelihood you won't be satisfied with just one anyways, so maybe your 2nd will be the perfect AR...or your 3rd.... or 4th

 

[TW25B]

Is that so?

Hmpfff. Every time I see the photos of the big shoots at Camp Perry the predominating rifle is the AR15 with the big barrels. As far as expensive...I might take exception again. A chit house match rifle starts at what...$2500.00 these days? The pros will pay the best smiths to tweak, tune and smooth them out too...fact is that if you are a match shooter, I think the case could be made that the AR is the cheaper route...but whatever! Whatever gets more shooters in the game is a good thing!

I'm not sure you understand my point. The AR rifle is a service rifle not a precision or match rifle. With much effort and money it too can shoot very well for the competitor. Altering an AR for extreme precision takes away from it's original and intended pedigree. It is neither needed or nor economical to do so for range shooting or action events. That is the point I'm trying to make. The OP is looking for an AR to play with, not an AR to win the most prestigious competition with. New/novice shooters have no idea what they want let alone what they need in an AR. It was said before that we need to know just what type of shooting the OP intends to do in order for any of us to offer a more defined opinion.

TW25B

 

[Rivalen]

I've been scanning the prices on EE and looking at the market for a solid week now and I know a bit more what I want and how much I'm willing to shell. As mentionned by Bolivar, too much reading/writing just buy the damn thing and shoot it! I have the luxury of not beeing in a rush but I get the point

I decided that I should get a standard 16 inch M4 to start with. Once I get used to the Platform and dicern my needs then I'll look into the high end of the Spectrum (Rainier arm Ultramatch, JP stuff, NR Modern Varminter or whatever!). The dollar has some time to come up hopefully

From the EE and various shops I've spotted a few models and here is what I plan to seriously look at:

Core 15 M4 (EE 800-1000$ - Was stubborn and missed a clean one at 800, will keep looking)
SIG M400 Enhanced (On sale soon @ 1049$+tx)
Armalite AR-15 (EE 1000-1150$)
Stag Arms 1R (1050$+tx)

My 2 favorites right now are either the Stag for it's "Standard issue" look with the removable carry handle and all or the SIG because it already comes with the MOE stuff. I've read threads and threads comparing those rifles; I think they're pretty much similar in quality and reliability. Armalite is interesting as it's the "Original", well sort off... I'm not too sure which to pick yet, I guess it'll all depend on the deal I find. If you think one in there is really superior to the others or if one of them is really bad, please chime in

On the cheaper side I've seen a lot of DPMS Oracle in the 700 range... Read mixed stuff regarding this one.

One question I have is: A lot of those come with a fixed F Marked sight (WTF is it with the F mark..). Will this protrude my sight if I decide to mount a scope, ACOG, Reddot or whatever on the flat top? Or do people just typically use iron sight on those entry level ARs?!

Again, thanks for the tips

 

[kage123]

Typically a telescopic sight will see right through a fixed front sight. If you ever go to a full rail then you can get rid of the front sight and gas block.

Red dots and holos you should co-witnes. Meaning mount your optic and get a rear backup iron sight (flip up or fixed) and then you can use either. If your dot dies, gets broken, you can use irons without having g to detach the optic.

 

[TW25B]

I've been scanning the prices on EE and looking at the market for a solid week now and I know a bit more what I want and how much I'm willing to shell. As mentionned by Bolivar, too much reading/writing just buy the damn thing and shoot it! I have the luxury of not beeing in a rush but I get the point

I decided that I should get a standard 16 inch M4 to start with. Once I get used to the Platform and dicern my needs then I'll look into the high end of the Spectrum (Rainier arm Ultramatch, JP stuff, NR Modern Varminter or whatever!). The dollar has some time to come up hopefully

From the EE and various shops I've spotted a few models and here is what I plan to seriously look at:

Core 15 M4 (EE 800-1000$ - Was stubborn and missed a clean one at 800, will keep looking)
SIG M400 Enhanced (On sale soon @ 1049$+tx)
Armalite AR-15 (EE 1000-1150$)
Stag Arms 1R (1050$+tx)

My 2 favorites right now are either the Stag for it's "Standard issue" look with the removable carry handle and all or the SIG because it already comes with the MOE stuff. I've read threads and threads comparing those rifles; I think they're pretty much similar in quality and reliability. Armalite is interesting as it's the "Original", well sort off... I'm not too sure which to pick yet, I guess it'll all depend on the deal I find. If you think one in there is really superior to the others or if one of them is really bad, please chime in

On the cheaper side I've seen a lot of DPMS Oracle in the 700 range... Read mixed stuff regarding this one.

One question I have is: A lot of those come with a fixed F Marked sight (WTF is it with the F mark..). Will this protrude my sight if I decide to mount a scope, ACOG, Reddot or whatever on the flat top? Or do people just typically use iron sight on those entry level ARs?!

Again, thanks for the tips

An F marked front sight base simply means the front sight base/tower is the appropriate height for a flattop upper receiver. You want F marked. magnified optics as pointed out above will work just fine with a fixed front sight(the classic triangle front sight base/tower) and you won't see it. With low powered optics in the 2x zoom and less you may see a slight blur or dark spot at the bottom of the image. Above 2x power you won't notice at all. If it still bugs you then a free float handguard(think rigid aluminum handguard for mounting bipods, grips and other items) and a low profile gas block( that would be the bare bones gas block that is missing the classic triangle shape) will allow you an uncluttered view when using optics.

With the options you've listed above I would suggest the Stag, then the core, then the Armalite and absolutely not a DPMS of any sort.

TW25B

 

[One Lung Wonder]

I've been scanning the prices on EE and looking at the market for a solid week now and I know a bit more what I want and how much I'm willing to shell. As mentionned by Bolivar, too much reading/writing just buy the damn thing and shoot it! I have the luxury of not beeing in a rush but I get the point

I decided that I should get a standard 16 inch M4 to start with. Once I get used to the Platform and dicern my needs then I'll look into the high end of the Spectrum (Rainier arm Ultramatch, JP stuff, NR Modern Varminter or whatever!). The dollar has some time to come up hopefully

From the EE and various shops I've spotted a few models and here is what I plan to seriously look at:

Core 15 M4 (EE 800-1000$ - Was stubborn and missed a clean one at 800, will keep looking)
SIG M400 Enhanced (On sale soon @ 1049$+tx)
Armalite AR-15 (EE 1000-1150$)
Stag Arms 1R (1050$+tx)

My 2 favorites right now are either the Stag for it's "Standard issue" look with the removable carry handle and all or the SIG because it already comes with the MOE stuff. I've read threads and threads comparing those rifles; I think they're pretty much similar in quality and reliability. Armalite is interesting as it's the "Original", well sort off... I'm not too sure which to pick yet, I guess it'll all depend on the deal I find. If you think one in there is really superior to the others or if one of them is really bad, please chime in

On the cheaper side I've seen a lot of DPMS Oracle in the 700 range... Read mixed stuff regarding this one.

One question I have is: A lot of those come with a fixed F Marked sight (WTF is it with the F mark..). Will this protrude my sight if I decide to mount a scope, ACOG, Reddot or whatever on the flat top? Or do people just typically use iron sight on those entry level ARs?!

Again, thanks for the tips

That's another can of worms. Red dots and holographic sights are great for the run n' gun crowd but they preclude any real precision work. contrary to my moral and intellectual superiors, the AR IS capable of precision shooting work too - and the optics for that are entirely different (and more expensive) than those from the run n gun sports. You have to decide what you want to do.

The standard iron sights on the AR are actually pretty good and more than adequate for plinking and close range work. Being something of a rebellious retronaut in my younger days, I shot iron sights on most everything I had and loved it. I would still go to a 20" HBAR myself. It is an excellent compromise between the heavy barrelled 24" snipers on one end, and the light snubbies on the other. Shorter than that and you are getting hemmed in to the run n gun scenario.

Be careful with the EE. I've been burned twice on it with used guns. For your first AR I strongly recommend a new gun from a reputable maker and dealer. If you have problems you will have back up.

You will love the AR. Jump in, get started and if your needs change, just buy a new upper and you're back in the game. I suspect your first crisis will actually be ammo. AR's are insatiable ammo hogs and reloading is something else you may want to look at in time.