Glock, Beretta,

the issue overseas with the US servicemen was mag related not gun related. I know gunshop owners in the USA that have had zero problem with 9mm Beretta's and tons of problems with Glocks, and same goes for Sigs, HK's etc. There is a certain amount of bias always evident from shops, depending on who they are interested in selling. I've seen problems from all guns, and I've heard of all makes of guns that have zero problems. There is no "perfect" gun. Although Glock is the only one I know of that consistently fires into people's legs when being holstered........
as for the TRB drill causing rounds to go off, it's pretty much limited to .40 S&W rounds for some reason, but again, it's not an uncommon incident. and unless you do a slingshot type grip on the rear of the slide, it's inevitable that you are going to be placing your hand over the ejection port of a semi auto. Rolling the hand over like is taught by the vast majority of instructors, makes it a dead certainty that your hand will be over the port. Further TRB drills also allow for fire out of battery from hangfires. The proper course of action is to wait 60 seconds from the last strike of the primer, then clear the weapon. Of course in a tactical environment that isn't going to happen, nor will it happen in a competition one.
 
hehehehe sad part is, it's true, Glocks are more prone to doing that simply because of the way the trigger and "safety" is setup. with the exception of a certain RCMP member holstering his Sig (yes Sig) with the hammer back (racer) you don't hear of any other guns doing this. I've heard about and seen reports on at least 6 of these incidents, not a lot sure, but more than say "the broken slide in the face incident (one)" that Beretta's had. Yet you don't see people running out and dumping their Glocks as a result.
 
Dumping rounds into ones leg is 100% the cause of improper operator headspacing. Revolvers don't have any manual or "active" safeties either and no one seemed to have issues shooting themselves with one? You can add a hundred manual safeties to a fiream, if the user is too ignorant to demonstrate safe handling and use the devices than so be it. Stupid people will always find a way.

In regards to waiting the 60 seconds before clearing. A cartridge outside of a chamber, that is unsupported by some type of foreign structure poses ZERO risk of injury to anyone. Brass casings will rupture much to the same effect as a firecracker.

TRB drill ND's being isolated to only the 40 cals? Again I call BS and have a hard time swallowing that, there's gotta be something more to the story or thats its just that; a story. I wouldn't believe that of any firearm.

In reference to the "cosistently firing into people's legs when holstering..." I would like to point out the issue of a southern US cop(I believe Las Vegas?) who ND her Beretta, from a hammer DOWN DA position nearly striking her partner as well as the subject. Then decides to reholster it with the hammer cocked in a SA mode. So with all the safeties, that being the slide mounted one and the fact that the first shot is DA.. What would be the excuse for that? Oh right, there is none. That was her fault, not the gun....

The comparison of Glock failures(or not) to Beretta failures is a moot point. The numbers tell the story. Many Beretta's have failed long after other similar life span Glocks continue to serve. The point that Vancouver PD is dumping their Beretta's for something else again illustrates their lack of satisfaction with the firearm. The fact that nearly 70% of US LE agencies are carrying Glocks and not Beretta's(or any other firearm) solidifies the point. Are Glocks 100% perfect? NO Are Glocks incapable of malfunctions or failures? NO Has Beretta or any other manufacturer conducted similar tests to those done by Glock? Not to my knowledge. Dropping a Beretta onto hard concrete from 1.5 metres definitely is a valid test. Dropping a Glock 400 feet from a helicopter onto the concrete leaves no doubt in my mind.

AS far as Beretta's go, I'll be the first to admit, and you won't hear me say this very often. I do like the feel of the Beretta. A bit large for myself, but it does feel good. The silky slide....I wish my Glock was that smooth....


CF

P.S. I like your signature Slavex.
 
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Wow, Slavex, you're generally a pretty level headed guy, but you're right off the deep end, on this one.

1) You don't rack a Glock with your hand covering the ejection port. The slide serrations are in the same place on the Glock and on the Beretta. I haven't got the vaguest idea what would make a person do it differently on each.

2) The glock is no more prone to "firing itself" when something is in the trigger guard while it is holstered than is any DAO or DA/SA pistol, like say a Beretta. The exception is a pistol which also has a thumb safety, not the upside down abortion/decocker on Berettas. One particular set of DA/SA guns having a proper thumb safety is the CZ line, and the safety cannot be applied while the hammer is not cocked. So, what again?

3) On the Beretta I owned briefly (sold due to financial pinch), the locking block had a habit of coming out when the gun was field stripped, however I felt about it. Also, it being really quite easy to assemble/reassemble, why not clean around the locking block? Seems like a fine idea.

4) Yes, the striker has to be forward to field strip a Glock. No, the hammer does not need to be down to field strip a Beretta (quite the opposite). Why were you field stripping a weapon that hasn't been properly cleared? Call this the IQ test required to actually own guns.

5) Sorry, but Berettas are simply not as reliable as Glocks. I took an advanced shooting course with Tritium here on the board, about 800 rounds, and he had to field strip and clean/lube his Elite 1A at least 3 times over that span. I did nothing. In fact, in 15000 rounds, I've never had a failure of any stripe with my G17.

6) The mag issue with the M9s was rectified, and the soldiers still hate the #### out of them. There is a growing body of pictures taken of American soldiers where they are sporting G19s they bought from Iraqi policemen. it being a G19, they aren't trying to change cartridges. Must be some other factor.

7) Wasn't it you saying the design lifespan of a locking block was 9000 rounds?

Berettas are good guns, in fact, I go to Italy again on business in June, and if they are still being produced, I'm buying an Italian made 92FS while I'm there. They are really good guns. Great guns. Glocks are all of the above, too, and they are simpler to operate and maintain.

Oh, Berettas are more accurate, but then, Glocks are more accurate than I am, so not really a point I care about too much.
 
I think what helps the Beretta in the accuracy department more than anything, are the much more refined sights than those that come standard on the Glocks. Good sights for instinct and high stress shoots just not great for precision work. That being said I seem to hit what I aim at.

CF
 
I think the Ad problem as noted with some Glocks was also due to the Fobus holster recall, and problems which came about because of the use of this holster.
 
.40 cal Beretta's are a totally different breed and should have never been made, you will get no argument out of me on that.
Now if the little midget felt he needed to clean his gun all the time that's his problem. My 9mm gets cleaned only when I feel like it, which is a max of 5 to 6000 rounds, and often far less often than that, the last cleaning was after 18,000 + rounds. That's the World Shoot in Ecuador, Canadian Nats, BC Provincials, all my S&D nights, practice nights, screwing about, renting it out etc. I think I might've lubed it twice, once in Ecuador and once in NB.
I was trying to illustrate a point with the Glocks shooting people in the legs while holstering, it's happened a few times, but you don't see people clamoring about it. And yes it's operator error, but it's also something that is easier to do with a Glock than any other gun, simply because of the trigger mech. Glock would have you believe that only a finger can activate the trigger, which is false, holster straps, loose clothing, you name it, all can activate the safety and allow the trigger to be pulled. On a revolver or a semi with an exposed hammer you can feel the hammer trying to move if you holster with your thumb on the back of the hammer (which is how most instructors should teach you).
And yes the locking block is a wear part that is designed to be replaced, unlike on the Glock where it's the whole barrel and slide.
And do a tap rack, and see how much of your hand is covering the slide. The SOP of a tap rack, as taught by Glock Inc.'s own instructors has you grasping the slide with your weak hand covering the majority of the slide, not pinching the rear serrations of the slide and pulling back like a slingshot. It's also how Glock teaches people to drop their slides (the grip that is).
and yes rounds exploding on extraction is more of an issue with .40's, it's well known enough that I've heard many LE instructors talk about it, competition instructors talk about it, and Military instructors talk about it. I have no idea how many times it's happened, but I've seen it happen at least a half dozen times in the 12 months. with all brands of pistols.
reading the arguments above show why Glock lovers are known as Kool Aid drinkers to everyone else. you can't reason with them. I have nothing against Glock and would own a bunch if my hands fit them. But they are no more reliable than any other modern pistol. What Glock really has going for it is Customer Service, which is far better than any other company out there.
 
Bartledan said:
5) Sorry, but Berettas are simply not as reliable as Glocks. I took an advanced shooting course with Tritium here on the board, about 800 rounds, and he had to field strip and clean/lube his Elite 1A at least 3 times over that span. I did nothing. In fact, in 15000 rounds, I've never had a failure of any stripe with my G17.
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That's hardly an argument is it? Just because the caring Beretta owner wants to clean the gun three times more often than you do doesn't simply mean it's not reliable.

Bartledan said:
6) The mag issue with the M9s was rectified, and the soldiers still hate the #### out of them. There is a growing body of pictures taken of American soldiers where they are sporting G19s they bought from Iraqi policemen. it being a G19, they aren't trying to change cartridges. Must be some other factor.
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M16 in Vietnam had problem because of bad ammunition and after 40 years there's still people telling others to aviod buying an AR because of that. Does that stop the 9 out of 10 guys from buying one? Different gun same scenario.

But here's a fair queston to you.

If either gun have a bad round in it, would you want to have a polymer or an alloy frame gun kaboom in your hand? :D :D :D That's like the choice of driving a car with or without an airbag. :eek:
 
That is pretty amazing. If I get a little scratch on one of my guns I spaz. What posesses someone to do that to a gun?
 
Slavex,
I agree on the 40 cal Beretta. Same can be said about the 40 cal Glocks, a model which should have had more R and D done before production. I find it funny that SIG was the last of the major makers to market a 40 cal gun and its the only one I've seen without problems. I think the rest of the market should take note.

In regards to Glocks trigger mech safety contributing to the higher chance of an ND(there's no such thing as an AD, all discharges are intended, or Negligent) I see where you're coming from. Same statement can be said for Beretta's in DAO or revolvers, or Sigs or especially SA guns like a 1911. In the last case you as the operator have actually disengaged the grip safety and it remains disengaged through the entire use/handling of the firearm. Should one forget to use the thumb safety or it get "wiped" off during reholster, I'd say you would have an even higher chance of ND considering the short travel on the trigger with a light pull. As for holster straps or other related gear getting caught. To that I would say is operator error, as well as equipment manufacturer error. Maybe its just me but I check all my holsters to ensure that no straps can get caught in the trigger guard.

As for the Glock trainers and their methods of instruction. I wasn't taught by them, and I still wouldn't follow their technique even if I were trained by them. Covering the E port serves no purpose other than to create more problems. The E port is the only exit for rounds in the chamber, so why cover it?

Glock being no more reliable than any other modern pistol? I beg to differ. You stated yourself that the lock block on a Beretta is a wearing part and should be changed after a few thousand rounds(5000 by my Beretta armourers manual) That in itself proves that the Beretta is less reliable than a Glock. I don't have to change anything(except for recoil springs, which wear out on all guns) and never have. Beretta's according to their own people and the armourers manual I have indicate a service life of 35,000 rounds to be about average. Call me crazy but, paying $1000+ for the gun, then buying up to 7 locking lugs just to throw it away at the end, doesn't sound like a reliable piece of equipment, nor a sound investment.


Mebiuspower,

In response to your comment about the "caring Beretta owner" choosing to clean his gun more often than bartledan. I reccommend you read his post again. I believe he states that his friend and I quote "...had to field strip and clean/lube his Elite 1A atleast three times over that span." Sounds to me like it was a requirment, not a preference.

To answer your comment about the M16. That problem was 40 years ago, and has since been rectified. The current issue being discussed is not a 40 year old problem related to ammo. Furthermore, those who still speak illy of the M16 series are those who know SFA about them. Those folks are the ones who have heard of these stories and regurgitate them verbatum as their only information about the gun. Not exactly reliable sources.

In the case of a KB, I don't think its really going to matter. I've witnessed a Glock KB and the shooter had no idea(new shooter). The magazine was ejected with some damage, the gun was charred and the extractor blew out. Still, I would rather witness these events than participate. The bad rounds being discussed here are in reference to bad or hard primers.

CF
 
well having seen a number of locking blocks shear off on Glock barrels over the years, replacing a locking block in a Beretta once ever 20,000 rounds or so (my old Italian 96 waited 160,000 rounds before it needed to be replaced), at a cheap cost of $35 seems a lot better than replacing an entire barrel.
The average lifespan of a Beretta that you stated above, is what the US Military wanted a gun to make, Beretta met than and more. In fact during testing by both the US armed forces and the INS Beretta was the only one who made both their mean failure rate expectations. Glock didn't even make it past the Frisbee stage (slide separation and damage too severe to continue). so again how is Glock more reliable?
the recommendations for spring replacement and locking block replacement (old style locking blocks, new ones are recommended at 20,000 I believe) is simply a recommendation, it's called preventative maintenance.
 
What trials are you referring to inr egards to the Glock failing? The Glock was never even permitted in the US trials back in the 80's due to the lack of an external safety and no second strike capability(Not to mention there was no way a new company like GLock could produce the shear numbers requested).

Please explain to me why Beretta is the only maker who has a 3 piece locking lug? Tell me why The Beretta has nearly twice as many parts as the Glock? Common sense tells me that more parts means more problems.

Of these sheared lock blocks on Glocks, would you happen to know the round counts? were these hot IPSC loads? Perhaps the ever problematic 40 cals? AS for the frisbee test, I can tell you that I have thrown my G17 on several occasions... Still runs like a top. However I do worry about their cheap plastic sights.

CF
 
all the ones I saw were low round count guns, both 9mm and .40 using factory ammo.
INS-Immigration and Naturalization Service USA. New model Glocks have been modified, I can't remember which mod number this is, to have longer slide rails on the frame. a direct result of the INS tests.
remember the Kool Aid comment? it fits even more here now. If Glock was the uber pistol you claim, it would be in service everywhere, yet it's not. That says a lot. It is a good pistol, just like Beretta, Sig, HK, Smith and Wesson, hell even Ruger, Walther etc. You do know that parts break on Glocks right? not just barrels, but also trigger pins, triggers, springs, etc etc etc. Some of the parts when they break even allow for the gun to fire on it's own apparently (Calgary incident).
 
That incident in Calgary is complete crap. Can you say BS story to cover up someones incompetence. I understand Glocks break, as does anything in the world. Would I ever bet my life that nothing will ever break on my Glock or any other? Only the foolish would bank on that. What I will say is that I have no issue banking my safety(or score) on my Glock in comparison to other firearms available. Your comment about the Glock not being in service everywhere confuses me? Last time I checked, more LE and SF units are using it everyday. I don't see Beretta being selected as the next SF or LEO pistol of choice? Not that Glock has an exclusive on the market either, SIG and HK have secured a good portion of the market as well. Beretta has been at it longer than anyone, yet they don't seem to be breaking through with any great forward leaps in design or products. Maybe its just a drought.

CF
 
Slavex, I'm aquainted with the Kool-Aid drinkers of glock Talk, but I've got to say, what you're engaging in is the kind of unobjective fanboyism the phrase "Kool-Aid Drinker" was meant to describe! You have made a whalloping load of specious arguments.

Nobody is suggesting that glocks are pefect, never fail, etc. To pretend that we are is a bit of a straw man.

The design response to the DEA frisbee tests was shorter frame rails, paradoxically. I don't mention that to continue an argument, it's jsut something I can't figure out :)

In all other respects, I agree with cannonfodder. :)
 
Corey3 said:
Look forward to being called a "fanboy" or other deragatory term for whichever pistol you choose.
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I just thought I would re-iterate this point. Arguing like children about a pointless topic is fun too. Considering 90% of the posts in this thread are just saying the same thing over and over again, maybe its time to stop?

- Drama Queen
 
In response to your comment about the "caring Beretta owner" choosing to clean his gun more often than bartledan. I reccommend you read his post again. I believe he states that his friend and I quote "...had to field strip and clean/lube his Elite 1A atleast three times over that span." Sounds to me like it was a requirment, not a preference.
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I doubt it was a requirement, I think bartledan was implying that if he didn't clean it it would'ne function, since he (bartledan) said that he didn't clean his Glock. I clean my Beretta after every shooting session even if it's only 50 rounds, I just like my guns clean and it doesn't mean in any way that I have to do it -- I chose to...

there seem to be confusion among some people about reliability and durability; (two different terms) If a gun has a ftf or fte every 100 shots but can last 150,000 rounds it would be considered durable (but not very reliable). Reliable gun doesn't need to last need to last 'forever', it simply has to shoot every time you pull the trigger and have a reasonable service life...

now replacing locking blocks on Berettas every 5000 rounds is like changing the underwear every 2 hours... :rolleyes: I remember reading about a guy who wrote for a gun magazine...he did a test with Beretta 92FS; shot 5000 rounds of +p+ 9mm rounds and 15,000 of regular factory ammo. Only had one FTE due to underpowered load, and he managed to brake a locking block at around 19,000 mark (he shot +p+ ammo first) He said he replaced it in 10 minutes and finished the last 1000 rounds w/o any problems...

the 35,000 is the point at which the testing in '85 stopped, it doesn't mean that Berettas brake after 35,000...
 
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