Glock fatal design flaw?

harbl_the_cat said:
Just a disambiguation - by "new shooters" I mean someone who's has zero experience shooting a handgun, such as first time shooters who have never fired a gun in their life.

The point I was trying to make was that "new shooters" limp wrist more often than non-"new shooters". Once you've gained some experience shooting, you're no longer a "new shooter" and eventually learn how not to limp wrist (or do it less often).

We all know limp-wristing makes you're shots go wild, and for us, in the pursuit of improving our accuracy train ourselves not to do it (regardless of the gun you shoot). What we don't normally consider is the fact that limp wristing also introduces a vibration into the gun it wasn't designed for. ANyone who has every worked with any kind of machinery knows that unintended vibrations causes stress on it's components, eventually to the point that they fail.

Take a machine, a gun, and introduce constant, unintended vibrations such as those caused by constant limp wristing, it introduces stress to it's components and sooner (rather than later) those components fail. Don't introduce those vibrations, the components are under less stress and don't fail (or last a lot longer).

I'm willing to bet that public ranges that primarily have first time shooters as their clientele have the problem with crack frames on their handguns quite often because their guns are constantly under the stress of limpwristing that stresses their components in a way guns owned by private owners aren't.

Please don't let this thread degenerate into a police/military training bashing thread.
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That's an interesting thought...I mean, I'm not convinced that chronic limp wristing will prematurely wear our a firearm, or even wear it out faster than a firearm that hasn't been limp wristed, but it is an interesting thought.
:redface:
 
Onagoth said:
That's an interesting thought...I mean, I'm not convinced that chronic limp wristing will prematurely wear our a firearm, or even wear it out faster than a firearm that hasn't been limp wristed, but it is an interesting thought.
:redface:
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I'm not saying limp wristing once or twice will wear it out - I'm saying limp wristing thousands of times will.

It goes back to the original point, the range I go to, I hear stories from staff even management describing how they have to replace their glocks quite often after tens of thousands of rounds. Conversely, I've heard of private owners, sports shooters, police services, or security contractors using theirs with high accolades with years of service after hundreds of thousands of rounds.

I don't think they're lying, I think the only difference is the technique of the users.
 
harbl_the_cat said:
It goes back to the original point, the range I go to, I hear stories from staff even management describing how they have to replace their glocks quite often after tens of thousands of rounds. Conversely, I've heard of private owners, sports shooters, police services, or security contractors using theirs with high accolades with years of service after hundreds of thousands of rounds.
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So lets look at this for a minute, retail range operators have issues, but real world uses run them for years, I think that says it all right there.
 
Steve David said:
So lets look at this for a minute, retail range operators have issues, but real world uses run them for years, I think that says it all right there.
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Again back to what I said earlier (by "they" I mean both parties you describe)

I don't think they're lying, I think the only difference is the technique of the users.
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I don't know where I heard this quote before but:

"The problem isn't the bow - it's the Indian"
 
Personally I suspect you are overthinking an answer to something that was a BS statement in the first place. I have worked at a range renting glocks and after a few years of service, one needed it's slide replaced.....thats it, no breakage, very few malfunctions even in newbie hands. Once in awhile you would get some limp wristing but basic instruction will cure that.
They are at least as durable as anything else out there and better than most.
I was at a gunshop last week and the person behind the counter was explaining how a 20 MOA base on a rifle is higher at the front to give more elevation to the scope....does this mean I have been mounting mine backwards? Beware gunshop/RO "knowledge"
 
Glocks.... they're not for everyone....;) :p

2007-10-27_091302_1aCoffee.gif

NAA.
 
Wouldn't limp wristing, if anything, cause less stress on the firearm since more of the energy is being taken up by the wrist? Ie, when limp wristing there is not enough energy being kept on the slide to cycle the firearm properly?
 
harbl_the_cat said:
I was at my the local range today, a facility that lets newbs off the street buy ammo and try shooting guns, when I heard a conversation between two RSO's and a few customers about GLOCKS.

The RSO's contended that GLOCKs aren't all they're cracked up to be - citing the fact that their range GLOCKs frames generally crack within 6 months and need to be replaced and that the hype behind them is all a big advertising blitz.

That got me thinking, since the person that got me into handgun shooting told me that GLOCK, for it's simplicity, reliability, and durability was the best choice of gun for a new shooter, him personally citing hundreds of thousands of rounds fired through his G17. Since then, I've heard stories of GLOCKs with upwards of a few millions rounds fired through them without a problem.

I myself have had my GLOCK for a few years now and put between 10000 - 15000 rounds through it and besides some of the springs feeling a bit broken in, it shoots fine.

Then it hit me, the GLOCK does have one major fatal design flaw - new shooters.

The slide on the GLOCK is much heavier than the frame and there are only 4 major points of contact connecting the slide to the frame (the 4 metal rails, embedded into it, two around the front of the trigger, two towards the rear of the gun).

I have no doubt that a GLOCK will survive extreme climates, submersion in water, or it's action jammed with sand or flour - but when you consider the design, the biggest weakness the GLOCK has is constant use by people who don't know how to shoot handguns.

I theorize that because the slide is so heavy compared to the frame, because the slide doesn't form a perfectly tight seal with the rails (I don't think any gun does), and because the points of contact are small, that limp wristing causes the slide to vibrate vertically, up and down, in a fashion that the gun was not designed for. With enough of this vibration, over time, the points of the frame (where the rails are attached) weaken and eventually crack.

I think this might explain why public ranges that use GLOCKs have them break so often, but also why competent operators are able to get great longevity out of them. We all limp wrist from time to time, but I think experienced shooters do it more rarely. New shooters almost ALWAYS limp wrist.

The analogy I'm thinking of is like driving standard. You can drive in first gear everywhere you go, but it won't take long before your transmission fails. I think GLOCKs in the hands of limpwristing newbies are the same way. This might be a problem if you're constantly lending your gun out to inexperienced folks, but if you know how to shoot, I think you should be fine.

I assume this is an inherent flaw with all semi-automatics and justifiably other guns hold up better than others - but I think the GLOCK bashing that goes around sometimes is ignorant and uncalled for, as the problem itself lies with the shooter, not the gun.

Thoughts?
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Even if the 6 month frame cracking thing is true, which I find hard to believe, I can guarantee you any other make of gun tested the same way would have the same results or worse. It's just the Glocks are not as expensive so the range keeps buying them. By the way why does the range replace the Glock in 6 months with another Glock if they could buy something else that doesn't break?
 
cbabes said:
By the way why does the range replace the Glock in 6 months with another Glock if they could buy something else that doesn't break?
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I suspect it's brand name recognition. People recognize the brand name.

As for limp wristing having less of a stress on the frame, just remember that the slide is meant to go straight rearward and straight forward, not up and down.

When you limp wrist, the energy from the recoil (which drives the slide rearward) is directed downwards towards your wrist and the rear of the gun - that causes a downward stress on the frame. I'm no mechanical engineer, but that's my understanding of dynamics.
 
Another disambiguation - this isn't a Glock bashing thread; rather an analysis of the effects of chronic limp wristing. I probably should have named the thread differently.
 
I'm not sure the pistol would realize it's not going straight back and forward. The pivot point would be your wrist, so to the pistol, it's still going forward and back, it just isn't horizontal. I don't think it would stress the rear of the frame either, as your meat hook would be soaking up the energy.:p

Kind of like rolling with a punch instead of taking a solid hit. The energy is there, it just gets dissipated differently. I'd hazard a guess of extreme use or abuse. Just one guys opinion, and I've been wrong before. At least once.
 
Cerdan said:
Glock fanboys don't bother reading. They fly into a white-knuckled rage at the slightest insinuation that Glocks aren't perfection.
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Maybe not...but about as close as perfection gets.
Over the past 25 years I have owned/shot many different handguns;ie Glocks, Colts, Hk, Sig, BHP...and many more


The most reliable, and for me the best all around handgun is my Gen 1 Glock 17, bought new by me . It is closing in on approximately 50,000 rounds fired. There were one or two situations; but never the fault of the gun itself. That to me is R-E-L-I-A-B-L-I-T-Y.

Oh yes, there is also my Gen 2 Glock 19. I expect it too will give me the service that my 17 did. It only has about 10,000 shots through it...barely broken in.

As for ''limp wristing'', this is something that can be overcome in very short order. If not, may I suggest something from the dollar store that shoots darts with suction cups on the front!
 
agreed with the above statement, if you keep hearing crap about glocks...dont buy it...and when your gun brakes, post it on the net so everybody can hate that other gun for braking....not too many guns out there with a 90K round warranty. I dont have the choice of what gun i have at my side at work, (im stuck with a s&w 4046) but i own 3 glocks myself and i would switch in a heart beat to the g22. my glocks have not failed me once, not a single ftf or fte, stovepipe, whatever. The guns work when u pull the trigger and the more you do it, the better and more accurate they get. Limp wristing should not be happening to anybody period...and if anybody shoots for 10,000 rounds limp wristed without stovepipes or fail to feed issues, than god bless the glock...at least it shoots in that stage, cause if i tried that with my s&w it would jam guaranteed. Maybe thats the problem with the glock, it just shoots, whatever the situation, and it dosent correct the shooter by jamming
 
To prove just how durable a Glock pistol can be, consider this:

When Glock began production runs of their pistols for civilian and law enforcement sales in 1985, they pulled one of the first 1,000 guns off the assembly line and dedicated that gun to 'torture testing', with the aim of finding out just how long that gun would fire without servicing. As a VIP visiting the Glock plant, you can fire that pistol with a range supervisor counting the rounds you put through it. When it goes back to storage, the barrel is swabbed out, but the gun is not cleaned further. To date --- that is to say 25 years later --- Glock reports that pistol has fired 500,000 rounds (read half a million rounds!!!) without a failure.

Now many people know that I am a Glock fanatic myself, having owned 8 of them through the years. But I like many other guns as well, including 1911s, Beretta 92s, and several more. Beretta, who is the world's oldest firearms manufacturer, with more than 500 years of production, cannot make the same claim on reliability as Glock on any model of firearm ever produced!

Just something to think about when you're considering the pros and cons to a Glock.
 
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