Good American Double

International Harvester

International Harvester

CGN Regular
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Location
Republic of Saskatchewan
Gentlemen

I’m gonna invest in a good American side by side and I am interested in what the doubles aficionados out there in gunnutz world would recommend. I’m looking for something that is capable of shooting modern heavy game loads as I want to use it for shooting gophers, pigeons, magpies, coyotes etc. as well as the odd sporting clays shoot. So far I like the Ithaca NID and the Winchester Model 21 Heavy Duck both in 12 gauge. The budget is 6k.

Regards and Merry Christmas

IH
 
Well, assuming your budget of 6K is in Canadian, not sure you will get a Model 21 heavy duck for that, but i'm no expert on M21 pricing.

If I had a budget of 6K, and I wanted an American SxS to shoot modern, heavy game loads through it, I'd stretch the budget and go looking for a bargain Super Fox, which can appear for that price range now and again in the US. I'd buy a later model with 30" barrels. That will be on the lighter side (9 pounds give or take) rather than an earlier gun, which will be heavier. Early guns are more sought after and command higher prices for similar configuration and condition. Won't be a high condition gun but you want to use it, not stare at it in the safe.

I'd get the stock refinished and glass bedded for $500 and know that regardless of condition when I bought it, the wood would be good to go for as long as I shot the gun. And I know it would sell for more than I bought it for. Only downside to the plan is our dollar sucks right now and two years ago, your money would have gone a lot further in the US market. But that is true no matter what gun you are after. M21 heavy duck guns aren't all over the place up here either.

Life is too short to shoot ugly guns and that covers both the NID and the M21. But that's just me.

As an alternative, for $6000 I could show you how to get into a high grade French gun, a Manufrance Ideal, that would handle those loads all day long, be a stunning looking and handling round action gun and have money left over for a few flats of shells. Oh, and it would probably only weigh 7 pounds and likely be more beautiful than any shotgun you or anyone you shoot with gets to see. Again, that's just my opinion.

This is my 12 gauge Ideal....all in less than 4K

 
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As much as some thumb noses at a Parker(cough james ) ,you're looking for a steel barrel 2 frame Parker ...i've worked on enough ,and seen enough of the insides of all the American makers to know ,the other well made American offering would be the Fox as James mentioned ...and although the Parker is a complicated gun internally they are always well finished ,the Fox is a much simpler action not near as well finished and they both work ...Personally I would stay away from the NID and 21 ...the reputations of both were marketing hype .

With a 6 grand cap you should be able to find what you're looking for in a Parker or Fox
 
LOL Chris.....not sure I would call a Parker ugly. Not quite a pretty as a Fox but pretty good when compared to the rest of the American guns. It's the Rube Goldberg internals that cause me to stay away from them. I like the simplicity of the Fox and the Ideal.

IH, I'd put more stock in what Chris suggests than my own post....he's one of the best doublegun smiths in the country.
 
International Harvester said:
Interesting. The little I’ve read seems to say the m21 had the strongest build. Appreciate the info gents.
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That is a long held bit of marketing. Yeah, it's strong. Does it make a difference when used as a hunting gun. IMHO nope.

What needs to be considered when looking at M21's is there is a cult of the M21 that is not really based on performance, handling, looks or embellishment. It's based on the "strong" thing and the Winchester name. So compared to guns of similar quality and performance from similar eras, you pay an extraordinary premium to shoot a M21. I don't argue with people who like M21's. They like them. Good for them. I just think they are extremely overvalued and hyped.

That said, there will always be someone to pay a good buck when you decide to send yours down the road.
 
This was a comment I received after buying my first A.H. Fox. (James will likely remember it.) :eek:

"welcome to the world of Double Shotguns and congrats on deciding to go with the finest shotgun in the world instead of one of those boat anchor 21's or coo coo clock internals Parkers!!!! or one of those stock splitting LC Smiths!"

Note: I am not nearly as knowledgeable on doubles as the gentleman that have already commented, but only added this for a bit of humour.
 
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Lol all good info as I am uneducated in the world of doubles. Full disclosure I am a dyed in the wool pre 64 Winchester m12 and m70 man so I naturally gravitated towards the m21. That being said I will gladly choose a different brand of equal build quality if it costs less! I always assumed an AH Fox would cost more than a 21. Could you guys point me towards a specific model and manufacture date range in a Fox that would provide the best shooter for off the shelf modern heavy loads....
 
International Harvester said:
Lol all good info as I am uneducated in the world of doubles. Full disclosure I am a dyed in the wool pre 64 Winchester m12 and m70 man so I naturally gravitated towards the m21. That being said I will gladly choose a different brand of equal build quality if it costs less! I always assumed an AH Fox would cost more than a 21. Could you guys point me towards a specific model and manufacture date range in a Fox that would provide the best shooter for off the shelf modern heavy loads....
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You're bought in, don't change now! How out of place would a Parker or Fox be in a safe full of Model 12s and Pre-64 M70s? You don't see many committed Mopar guys with a Mustang in the garage too.
 
IH, just so you know, I started shotgunning in my early teens with a M12 16 gauge. And I have owned M12's longer than any other gun. I love them. But a SxS is an entirely different animal.

Now I will happily admit to being biased in favour of Fox guns. Particularly the small bores. I like Remington's and Lefevers. The truth of the matter is that I don't get involved with Parkers because I think, given collector interest, they are over priced for what you get.

A nice stout Fox A grade or Sterlingworth in 12 gauge with #1 barrels will be very reasonably priced and be a hell of a gun. In fact, you could probably pick up a nice Sterlingworth in 12 gauge in the $500- $700 range, have it gone over by a good smith to ensure perfect mechanical condition, reblue the barrels and refinish the stock (get the oil out of the wood, repair any cracks found, glass bed and a nice oil finish followed by fresh chequering ) and have it all for under $2000 Canadian. And provided you found one with good barrels and good barrel wall thickness, and you did the wood.....pound away with those heavy loads you want to shoot.

I'm sure someone will come along to extol the virtues of the M21. No problem. My dislike of the M21 is centred around the appearance and the price. So to each their own.
 
BigUglyMan said:
You're bought in, don't change now! How out of place would a Parker or Fox be in a safe full of Model 12s and Pre-64 M70s? You don't see many committed Mopar guys with a Mustang in the garage too.
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Hahahahaha!

Gotta admit, I had a Chevy (1967 Camaro RS/SS convertible) and a Ford (1972 de Tomaso Pantera packing a 351 Cleveland). They looked fine together. But any Mopar stuff would have been a disaster.
 
What are the major differences between an A grade AH FOX and a sterlingworth? I’ve had a look at the HE grade super Fox, that’s a nice looking gun. The super Fox price is comparable to the m21 duck as far as I can see.

I was always a ford man and drove big block galaxies but as I get older I’m starting to appreciate chevelles and impalas! As for mopars they’re not my bag lol. Well maybe a war-time powerwagon.��
 
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International Harvester said:
What are the major differences between an A grade AH FOX and a sterlingworth? I’ve had a look at the HE grade super Fox, that’s a nice looking gun. The super Fox price is comparable to the m21 duck as far as I can see.

I was always a ford man and drove big block galaxies but as I get older I’m starting to appreciate chevelles and impalas! As for mopars they’re not my bag lol. Well maybe a war-time powerwagon.��
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The Sterlingworth is just a budget A grade. Same basic gun with some money saving measures taken. The most obvious are a switch from Krupp steel barrels to barrels labeled "Sterlingworth Compressed Fluid Steel". Most likely Belgian made (as were the Krupps) but from the lowest bidder on the order. The hard core guys will tell you there are different, identifiable makers initials on some of the barrels so clearly sourced from a variety of makers. The wood was changed from European Walnut (Juglans Regia) to American Black Walnut (Juglans Nigra), the forend latch was changed from a Deely lever to a snap-on system and the chequering was flat-topped instead of pointed up. And of course, what little engraving there is is quite crude roll stamping.

The HE is an oversized version of the classic Fox action. It is typically embellished like an A grade but, aside from the very stout action, has had special work done to the barrels, originally by Fox's barrel guru, Bruce(?) Becker. The HE is by far the best known of the long range heavy duck guns produced by American makers. Marketed as being good out to 80 yards. I have an extremely tightly choked (.048/.048) long range Lindner Daly duck gun that I will be comparing to an HE come next summer. Very curious to see how they compare.

My father was a Ford dealer. He didn't like the Camaro but he thought the Pantera made up for the transgression with the GM product.:d
 
Just for counterpoint, why are you stuck on an American made double? Have you considered a fine English pigeon/waterfowl boxlock? Many were made in 2 3/4" and 3" chambers, even a few longer chambered and proofed up to 1 5/8-1 3/4 oz. these guns are every bit as sturdy as any of the American guns, wonderfully hand fitted and hand finished and usually sport a version of the Anson and Deeley action that has been been in continuous production since 1875 - because it's that good. Compare one of these beauties in hand together to any similar grade American gun and the American gun seems somewhat crude by comparison. If you are putting out serious money you might as well get real quality rather than collector value for your money. J
 
Very good point Ashcroft. I was mostly responding to the “American” question but I could not agree more. Especially the point you make about real quality vs collector value.
 
fishslinger said:
You ever thought of a modern SxS? The way things are going with new nontox regulations I wouldn't be surprised to see lead shot band out right for everything, including clay's. Here's somthing to think about, https://www.connecticutshotgun.com/product-category/rbl/ Galazan makes some nice modern doubles including a modern fox. Just something to think about. https://ellwoodepps.com/hunting/firearms/savage-fox-a-grade-150294.html
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The "new" Fox is a A & D boxlock design, basically the RBL with a different name on it. Not a bad gun but not a "Fox" as in the classic Foxes. CSMC DOES make the classic Fox but the prices start at $15,000 and go up substantially from there.

The gun I would look most closely at, were I to want a new SxS, would be the Dickenson SxS. A little hard to find up here but easily found in the US. pricing in the $1500 US range, Turkish made, likely would require a little trigger work by an expert to get the pulls to the proper weight but highly regarded by the members at the Double Gun forums. But these are mostly game guns, not heavy duck guns. The A & D Fox (or a slightly used RBL, easy to find for $2700-$4000 US depending on options) will be heavier and able to somewhat mitigate the recoil levels of heavy loads, certainly better than the Dickenson or any other lighter weight gun.
 
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