Good American Double

There are very, very few guns that you can buy at retail and expect them to appreciate in value. You have to buy a gun that is under-appreciated by its owner to have a chance of appreciation. Most guns depreciate in value if they are used significantly in the field due to bluing wear, case colour wear and the usual minor dings to the stock.
The market for middling American guns and even middling British guns seems soft right now in the big US auction houses.
Only the very best, and scarce American shotguns seem to be still appreciating, and you are not proposing to be in that market at your price range.
I think you should focus on the "using" value of a shotgun to you.
To buy a gun that is undervalued you have to be patient, and be very active in the gun show circuit and other circles where better quality guns are traded.
 
If you read between the lines of Ashcroft's and saskbooknut's posts, this is what is/has happened.

First, the world of vintage SxS. The acknowledged leader in making high quality SxS was England. Other Continental countries made very good guns as well....Germany, Belgium, France and Austria are the biggest. Italy and Spain's days came later. All these places (except for France) had a thriving export market and thus were in competition with each other. Constantly pushing each other to be better.

The US was a different story. Huge domestic market meant exports didn't matter. And the type of market was more for a tool than a high quality instrument. As well early on, protectionist tariffs offered price protection to home grown companies.

So the average build quality of the typical American SxS built in 1905 or 1925 pales into comparison to the average build quality of a Birmingham boxlock built in the same era.

Flash forward to today. Americans love things American. And so in the overall market for vintage SxS in North America, American guns are in high demand (collectors who have no idea what that really means) when compared to their British and Continental competition.

Now lay over that the idea that we are coming (or have got to) the end of a 25 year boom in SxS. The whole market is soft except for very specialized segments. Those being first and foremost, serious collector grade quality guns and small bores to a lesser degree. So right now is a great time to be buying an average quality (for using, not looking at) 12 gauge SxS. But for even better value, switch your focus from American (overpriced in general given build quality) to British (underpriced in general given build quality).

The only fly in that ointment is that most British (and Continental) guns tend to be game guns...a little on the light side. So not ideal for the kind of use IH wants to put it to. The solution is to look for a fowling gun made in Birmingham. That would be designed for waterfowl, be heavier and be proofed for a heavier charge.

And if you are confident of your own judgement, the Continent makers offer even better value. I own one gun from England. I own a bunch from France, Belgium, Germany and what is currently called the Czech Republic. My outlook is to find the highest quality SxS possible for the least amount of money. So that tends to mean relatively obscure makers from places other than America or London/Birmingham. But I'm not looking for appreciation....I'm looking to use guns every day that if bought new today would be in the $40,000 to $100,000 range.
 
Collectors get a little crazed... LOL

Was just looking at two American guns....an A grade Fox and a L C Smith (forget the grade but nothing special).....both 16 gauges, both in reasonably high condition. However, both have original 32" barrels. That kicks the price up to $20,000 USD for each of them. An extra 2" of barrel adds $10,000 and an extra 4" of steel adds an extra $15,000. Not a game I'm interested in.

Clearly, there is nothing about quality reflected in the price. Only rarity of an American made product.
 
International Harvester said:
Is the GECO 60’s German double on the EE right now the kinda gun you’re referring to as a continental?
Click to expand...

Yes, that would qualify as "Continental" as in Continental Europe.

However, it's a post war gun made in East Germany. I tend to stay away from post war guns. This is a huge generalization but it applies to what I am normally looking for....after WWII, Europe was a mess, especially Germany. There were millions killed, especially young men who would have, under normal circumstances, been apprenticing to gun makers. The workshops, in many cases, had been destroyed. Shortages of materials. Not much of a market for fine guns as Europe recovered. On top of everything else, fine companies like Sauer, Merkel and GECO had been taken over by the communists. Whatever they were and whatever they were making.....it was not what had been made before the war.

I'm thinking more like these guns from the 1920's. I paid $2000 Cdn or less for each of them (except the Lindner Daly. Lindner guns are considered the quality equivalent of Purdey). While I typically have the stocks refinished ($500) and barrels re-blued ($400), none of these guns required any work to be able to be used. All were on face with barrels bores and stocks in excellent condition. While the Lindner needed a little work, even paying for the repairs plus the cosmetic maintenance of refinished wood and reblued barrels, I still got it for half price compared to the US market for such a gun.

Pieper from Belgium


Heym from Germany


Lovena from Prague


Roblin from Paris


Army & Navy from Birmingham


Lindner Charles Daly (1906) from Germany


The trick is to educate yourself enough that you can judge the original quality and current condition of a gun and not have to rely on brand name recognition to know if it's good or not. There are a few threads on here that go into this in more detail. If I was computer literate, I'd give you a link. LOL
 
I’ve bought guns in Canada, the US and France. Currently negotiating on one from Vienna. I just take the cost of importing as part of the purchase price and then make my decision.

Of the guns I posted above, all were bought in Canada with the exception of the Roblin a Paris.

I’ve bought about a half dozen from the US and the same out of France.
 
Loads of good honest information ( and some beautiful guns) here! Canvasback and Saskbooknut both make some very knowledgeable points. To many Americans nothing can compare with American guns of any type and they will pay far more for a simple rugged farmer's tool than the actual quality warrants. Remember that many classic American guns ( and some British and European guns made for the American market) frequently have excessive drop around 3" which won't work for most modern shooters. Of course, it still compares favourably with the horde of cheap Belgian hardware store guns they mostly have for comparison but above all Americans are patriotic, especially about AMERICAN guns. If you buy into this market you are overpaying compared to the true value of the product and are competing with your American cousins - using American dollars. If you are looking for a safe queen for investment purposes this could work for you if you spend enough to get a minty original example of a higher grade gun but the buy in is very high - do you want tens of thousands tied up in your safe while you do your shooting with a Browning or Beretta? There were many very high quality pre war doubles made in Germany, Austria, Belgium, Italy and France but because all of these countries were mostly subject to war time confiscation and ravaged by war the survival rate is very low making really good examples hard to find unless they were imported into the USA or Canada prior to the war. If you can find one it will likely have an unfamiliar name but because of this lack of brand name value it can be a stunning value.
The British made very fine guns between 1900 and 1945 with tens of thousands of survivors and even the plainest guns by obscure makers were beautifully made, very rugged and pure pleasure to use. Thousands of these guns came to Canada with British immigrants and retirees between 1920 and 1990, many in outstanding condition. The ones you want to look for will be the heavier waterfowl and pigeon guns, at 7-8 1/2 pounds they will be heavier than the regular game gun and built to take a steady diet of heavy loads. Look for recent proof marks showing 70 mm ( 2 3/4") or 76 mm (3") , previous generation marks showing 2 3/4" or 3" or the earlier marks of 1 1/4 oz (2 3/4"), 1 3/8 oz, 1 1/2 oz, 1 5/8 oz and even 1 3/4 oz, these latter designating 3"" or longer chambers. These will usually be accompanied by a stamp on the barrel flats showing LC enclosed in a diamond denoting long chamber. Make SURE that the chamber length matches the chamber markings, DON'T buy a gun which has had the chambers lengthened without being suitably reproofed. Why? Worthless anywhere except USA and Canada, can not be legally sold in UK or European countries and a very dubious investment as well as being potentially hazardous. You will pay more for a famous name like Westley Richards or Holland and Holland but hundreds of others like Greener, Ford, Hollis, Lewis , Bland, etc made the kind of gun you are looking for in various grades with excellent quality. Check the Bland website in USA, Chis Batha there specializes in turning up the kind of gun you are looking for and also Vintage Doubles in Wenatchee Washington. Ellwood Epps and Prophet River in Canada get a few from time to time. Haunt gun shows, talk to anyone displaying fine doubles. Remember, always buy the gun, not the name.
 
Hmm , I agree D&D has a great opinion ...which is his own ( I subscribe to his blog ,we can't learn enough;)) - as all ours are ....I wonder though ,how many times he's been inside any of these ?
My opinion ,which is worth basically the time I took to write this ...is that for the OP's described use he really shouldn't look no further than stevens 311 in good nick ,but with the proposed budget he could have at least 15 maybe 20 311 shotguns ...enough to last ,but that of course is basically a collection ..albeit a famous American sxs collection .

If you (the OP) want to spend 6 grand on an American sxs( well kinda ) to shoot the #### out of , I could confidently suggest a Parker reproduction in the least collectable gauge of 12 ,if you're lucky you could even find a steel shot special .

All the other suggestions are good too
 
BigUglyMan said:
That Heym is similar to my mystery "Not-Sauer".
Click to expand...

Some outward similarities but that's true for lots of SxS. Yours has intercepting sears as indicated by the pin (screw head) at the top rear of the action. Yours has the bolster for strength along the side where the barrel flats meet the action flats when the gun is closed. Style of engraving is quite different (I like yours better). You have a horn trigger guard, mine's metal.

FYI, I may have not made this clear on the other thread but there are literally thousands and thousands of older European SxS (Usually reasonably good quality) that have no name on them. It's not in any way a sign of poor quality. We typically refer to them as "Guild guns" as to join the local gunmakers guild, one usually had to demonstrate one's ability by building a gun. And they typically weren't named. However, this does not begin to account for all the "no name" guns in circulation. It's just a short hand name.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom