Good Service Rifle ammunition?

Which should I try first for Service Rifle?

  • Ruag GP90 (63gr). Significantly less expensive.

    Votes: 6 31.6%

  • Lapua GB501 (69gr Scenar)

    Votes: 4 21.1%

  • Federal GM223M3 (77gr Matchking)

    Votes: 7 36.8%

  • Fiocchi Exacta (77gr Matchking)

    Votes: 2 10.5%
  • Total voters
    19
  • Poll closed .
Longshot said:
I been on many army international teams that travel all over the place with the best military service shooters in the country.Sometimes we have new rifles like this year in Bisley.Mostly they are new"ish".Guess how many times I've seen a brand new or for that matter,any C7 A1 or A2 shoot a 1 inch group?ZERO.Never seen it and I doubt that I ever will.Part of becoming a good shooter is knowing the limitations of the equipment.C7's will NOT shoot 1 inch groups no matter who's behind them.Best I've ever seen was a 10 round 1.5 inch group from prone mag on the ground and that was under near still conditions.There many be the occasional fluke but it is not repeatable.I've shot lots of different 62 grainers and most shoot just fine.
As for the army having better equipment,well respectfully boss,I have to totally disagree.99% of the folks at CFSAC are shooting their rack grade C7 A1's from their units that have been used as ladders and pry bars and had BFA's screwed into the crowns.Better equipment?No way.If someone did some of the things I've seen done to military guns,to your own personal rifle,you'd buttstroke them in the face with it.
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Exactly right. Colt Canada guns will come off the floor of the factory and hit the depot if it can shoot under 2 MOA, not 1. After that, god only knows what people have done to it on exercise or war. 1 MOA? good luck with that.
 
Longshot,

Thanks for bringing this back to reality.

Hey Greentips, you can't be serious when you say that IVI is equivalent to GP90. I've shot a fare amount of IVI and done very well with it but it has never outperformed GP90 in any of my guns.
The Colt Canada forged barrel is very good but doesn't outshoot the HKMR223 or Knights barrels. By the way Reed Knight told me in person that he thought that 5.56 HK barrels were the most accurate, but he's working on it (hammer forging his own match barrels soon).

Rich
 
I was talking to a Colt Canada rep. about the carbines (10 1/2") being issued to the OPP. I pulled targets while one was fired back to 300m, and it certainly held its own. He commented that as a group these had done very well in testing, grouping better than 2 minutes.
I remember one match when the Navy team had an issue of brand new rifles and sights, while many of the Army types were shooting really used C7s with earlier generation sights. Quite a disparity with issue gear.
 
I have personally shot moa or better groups with C7s on my 3s, CLC (battle school guns no less) and during training with the Second Battalion PPCLI. They are out there..at least they were.

Colts and Diamaco barrels rock, and Rich, the SR 15 barrel is a Colt Canada barrel.

I would pit the current issue IVI against RUAG 63gr. match ammo in a heartbeat, and if had the choice between the two to shoot a match, would take IVI hands own.


I agree overall that coming to SR matches with space guns and tuned ammo is stretching the intention of the competition, just pointing out that serving members are not at any noticable disadvantage and handloading is by far the best way for a civy to get really good ammo at reasonable cost.

Hungry here: I just don't wanna hijack this thread... I agree with you about the space guns and tuned ammo stretching the 'spirit of the competition'. I also agree with the handloading and how it allows a civvie to get good ammo at decent price. With all that said, you gotta see/shoot/work butts with the new CFSAC Matches 1-4... Adios, space guns!! Adios, match ammo!! Hello, gym membership!! I'm not joking. Space guns are disadvantaged in these new matches. Hey...I'm doing target prep this aft (Fri 02 Jul 2010) at Mons Range for an ORA 03 Jul SR match. It's intense, fast, and super exciting. Cheers, Barney
 
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My last time running an ATS range a month ago, some shooters (using IVI C77 Ball and C7A2 Rifles) got groups ranging from 49mm to 59mm, at 100m, ES5. Given that most had not shot in almost a year (some had not shot in a lot longer than that), I would say that on a day with better weather, better groups could be achieved. Meaning: I rather doubt anyone on my firing point was shooting to the full capability of the rifle.

When we first got the C7s in 4CMBG in Germany in 87, I saw a few two-inch groups at 300m. That was using FNB SS109 Ball (IVI was not available to us at that time).
 
Just out of curiosity, what is a "space gun"?
Anything that doesn't have an Elcan on top of it?;)

I just spent 6 full days training and shooting, FIBUA and Moving Target matches. Probably shot the better part of 800 rounds, I lost count. First thing every morning we fired a 10 round group at 100m, to confirm zeros, get warmed up. One of the rifles was built up using an older Colt commercial upper and lower set. Barrel was commercial, having been purchased from Wolverine. I'm not sure of the make. I do know it was turned down to reduce weight, and to make the rifle handier. It handles well for position shooting & getting into position quickly. Scope was a Leupold CQT, used at 3X. Every morning, shooting prone off the mag, with 62gr ball, it shot a centered 10 shot group that was about 1 1/2". Most of the group was close to 1", but there were always a few strays.
Nothing in the setup that could not be duplicated by anyone who chose to do so. No magic. Could the rifle be a winner in any SR type matches? Sure, if was used by a skilled competitor. Would it make an indifferent shot into a winner? Not likely.
 
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Gunnerlove said:
If you shoot enough groups you will get a good one. The secret is to realize that that really good group is meaningless.
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That group is telling you what that rifle and that ammunition is capable of.
While it isn't critical information, it does give valuable information to the shooter how they are doing.
It is very rarely the mechanical device in the equasion that is hampering best efforts.
Referencing the C7s, these were guns that were consistantly firing moa if I was. Not a fluke, the rifles were capable of it.
 
Back in 1988 I was issued a new C7 (nobody knew what an Elcan was back then) and they shot realy well. We had some a couple of guys turning in under 2 MOA, with open sights. The IVI and C7 was a good combo and I still believe that IVI is good service ammo.
I like IVI but have never got it to shoot as good of groups as my RUAG GP90 or RUGA Match, especially out at 300 to 500 meters. Next match I'll bring all my service guns and bag them for anyone (in Calgary area) to try.

Rich
 
"...not interested in reloading right now..." Lay down until that thought goes away.
"...like IVI but..." IVI ammo's accuracy has always been mediocre. Reliable, but not terribly accurate.
 
IVI C77 5.56 ball is excellent ammunition. It is accurate.
You are probably thinking about some of the 7.62 ball made by IVI two companies ago.
 
The guns we took to Bisley last year averaged 2.5 MOA. The best shot about 2.3, the worst shot just shy of 3.

Taking the triad off didn't seem to make a whole hockey-sock of difference, nor did swapping for a high-end leupold scope. That was the best those rifles and ammo would shoot.

Our team guns here in Halifax generally shoot between 1.5-2MOA in ideal conditions. I bench tested every C-7A1 we had a few years back, and they averaged 1.5 MOA, with the best turning in around 1.2-1.3 MOA. (That was 2 out of 20 guns shooting that well.)

A lot of it comes down to the ammo.

Bear in mind, right now, IVI is busy stamping out bullets as fast as they can, so production is high, QC is probably lower, and the dies are probably getting a bit worn/loose.

If you're lucky and get the first batch of ammo off a new set of dies, it might shoot better than another lot.

That said, IVI is damn good ammo, it's done me very well over the years.

With the new matches, the winner will not be the one with the tightest groups. In fact, it never has been.

CFSAC has always been won based on who makes the least number of misses. Period.

One miss cost me in 2008.

If there had been a year that the QM had been decided on V-bulls with both shooters firing a perfect 800, then I'd believe that ammo made a difference.

NS
 
NavyShooter said:
The guns we took to Bisley last year averaged 2.5 MOA. The best shot about 2.3, the worst shot just shy of 3.

Taking the triad off didn't seem to make a whole hockey-sock of difference, nor did swapping for a high-end leupold scope. That was the best those rifles and ammo would shoot.

Our team guns here in Halifax generally shoot between 1.5-2MOA in ideal conditions. I bench tested every C-7A1 we had a few years back, and they averaged 1.5 MOA, with the best turning in around 1.2-1.3 MOA. (That was 2 out of 20 guns shooting that well.)

A lot of it comes down to the ammo.

Bear in mind, right now, IVI is busy stamping out bullets as fast as they can, so production is high, QC is probably lower, and the dies are probably getting a bit worn/loose.

If you're lucky and get the first batch of ammo off a new set of dies, it might shoot better than another lot.

That said, IVI is damn good ammo, it's done me very well over the years.

With the new matches, the winner will not be the one with the tightest groups. In fact, it never has been.

CFSAC has always been won based on who makes the least number of misses. Period.

One miss cost me in 2008.

If there had been a year that the QM had been decided on V-bulls with both shooters firing a perfect 800, then I'd believe that ammo made a difference.

NS
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Well said!
 
Longshot said:
Well you must be a better shot than everyone on all 5 international teams I've been on and all 6 CFSAC's I've shot at.Consider yourself lucky.
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:rolleyes: I'm not claiming every C7 is capable of 1 moa.
There are guns that are capable of that in the system. In very small numbers? Without question.
The fact you took sh!tty rifles to Bisley or on to CFSAC doesn't mean they don't exist.


NavyShooter said:
I bench tested every C-7A1 we had a few years back, and they averaged 1.5 MOA, with the best turning in around 1.2-1.3 MOA. (That was 2 out of 20 guns shooting that well.)
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Right, do that at an infantry battalion level and you will find a mitt-full more. I'm betting a lot more, and some rifles that will turn in better performances to boot.



NavyShooter said:
the winner will not be the one with the tightest groups. In fact, it never has been.

CFSAC has always been won based on who makes the least number of misses. Period.
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Precisely my point. You have a far better chance of turning a miss into a 4 with a rifle that is capable of 1.2 moa than one that turns in 3moa....and just as likely to turn a 4 into a miss with sub-par ammo.
 
beltfed said:
:rolleyes: I'm not claiming every C7 is capable of 1 moa.
There are guns that are capable of that in the system. In very small numbers? Without question.
The fact you took sh!tty rifles to Bisley or on to CFSAC doesn't mean they don't exist.
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Right I agree.You must of had them all on your 3s, CLC (battle school guns no less) and during training with the Second Battalion PPCLI. :jerkit:
 
Sometimes a flyer is what puts a shanked round on paper.

If you can't reload figure out how much you are willing to spend per shot.
55gr AE for .55
62 gr AE for .60
Ruag for .90
FGMM $2
Lapua for 1.70

Now go buy a couple boxes of each and see how they shoot at 100, 200, 300, 500m

I know what works for me and those in my circle, you need to find what is available and going to work for you in your rifle.
 
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