Got my 50-70 out shooting today - 130 year old rifle! More pics/info added

[Whelen B]

Finally got around to shooting my pre1898 Remington Rolling Block today. What a sweety to shoot. VERY easy on the shoulder. Next to zero recoil - even in my light rifle. It was a starter load chronyed right at a whisker over 1000fps with 550gr WFNs with its 24" barrel.

25 yds - the first two shots at a target were touching EXACTLY centred 3" high at 25yds. Wow this is gonna be good I figured. However third shot went left of centre about 2" - same elevation. Time to move further out.

100yds
- first shot EXACTLY centre again 6" high at top of paper target. So I changed to a six o'clock hold and shot three more in succession. All were on paper but a little above and left of centre - 6 1/2" group. Had a crappy target to see with my tired eyes but all in all in was fun. Of course all shooting with iron sights. All shots were angle of deer. I'm happy enough for a first go at it.

Some of the holes @100 looked as if the bullets were tipping. I must check the twist and see if the twist is enough in my rifle for 550s. Maybe 425 or 450s will be better. I used 5744 (apologies to Ben and all other BP lovers) so maybe it didn't bump up the bullet to fit the bore (.512" to 515" groove). BP probably would have been more accurate. Didn't use any wads either - just a heavy crimp and WLRMs for better ignition.

All in all it was quite enjoyable sliding those huge cylinders in place, hearing that quiet thunk before rolling the block ahead. Could there be a much simpler action design?

Here's a pic of my loads and the bullet used.
http://35cal.com/images/50_70load_550RCBS_sm.jpg

 

[Willy Tincup]

Right on Whelen: They are a real pleasure to shoot, love them rolling blocks and a real easy round to load up. Gotta get back to the range with mine.

 

[mooncoon]

If some of the bullets are tipping it may be the bullets are too hard and that you have a larger bore than expected. I have a 32-40 which is .007" oversize and hard bullets tumble immediately while very soft ones will obturate enough to grip the rifling and shoot moderately accurately

cheers mooncoon

 

[Whelen B]

Thanks for the suggestions. My bullets were cast with 20:1 according to the package notes from the commercial caster. Closer to pure lead might be better but I'm new to these old buffalo rounds. I purchased a Lee 450gr .515" mould about a year ago like this:

But I haven't been able to source any lead yet. I have never cast a bullet yet though I'd like to try. Getting lead has been my problem.

 

[Win 38-55]

Great job! I love to see these old 50-70's shooting. 5744 might be just a tad slow to do a good obturation. 2400 might work; it's got a tad faster burn rate and produces a pressure curve very similar to FFg for the same bullet weight and velocity. Stay away from hard cast, of course.

 

[senior]

My 50-70 Trapdoor shoots 500gn as cast with wheelweights out of a Muzzle loader mold just beautiful

I now have a Rem Rollingblock in 50-70 I got to get in shooting shape.

 

[Andy]

In my Swedish Rolling Block in 12.7X44R (very close to 50-70), I found that bullets over 450grs in weight were not as accurate as lighter bullets - I attribute that to too slow a twist rate. Mine shoots well with SR4759 and with a full case of pulled down 8X63 Swedish powder (burn rate near Varget).

 

[mooncoon]

My bullets were cast with 20:1 according to the package notes from the commercial caster. Closer to pure lead might be better but I'm new to these old buffalo rounds. I purchased a Lee 450gr .515" mould about a year ago like this:

At 20 : 1 you should have a fairly soft bullet that will obturate with black powder. A lot of commercially cast bullets are quite a bit harder and unlikely to obturate. The advantage of 5% alloy is that it fills the mold a lot more sharply and reduces or eliminates rounded corners on the ridges. In some old barrels like rolling blocks, the loverin stlyle bullet such as you have also works a lot better because it can be seated a lot closer to the start of the rifling. I have a Sharps that I relined using a liner made from an original 50 - 70 rolling block barrel and it shoots such bullets well and does not shoot the original government style worth a damn because the throat / chamber is overly long. I had a previous rolling block in 50 - 70 with a perfect bore that would not shoot and foolishly traded it off because I did not know about the alternate style of bullet

cheers mooncoon

 

[Whelen B]

Just cobbled up 10 more rounds to test soon. Thought I'd try a duplex load. Here's what I loaded.

All by weight - 4.5 grs SR4759 under 40.5 grs FFg goex behind a 550gr FN (pictured above). One cereal box card under the flat bullet base and compressed about .060". WLRM primers.

First time ever loading BP in a cartridge case. Hoping to bump up the .512" bullet to fill .515" grooves for better accuracy than I had with 5744.

So what do you think - you guys with experience with the 12.7x44r and 50-70 especially - does that load seem reasonable to you for an antique roller in good shape. I know I'm on my own here but informed comments are appreciated. My chrony should help with determining the pressure level somewhat. Accurate Arms states they used 65grs of FFg behind a 550gr bullet for their pressure limit of 22,500psi for the 50-70 - in a replica of course. An antique should be run at way less pressure.

 

[Skinny 1950]

Whelen B a good source for lead are scrap yards or plumbing supply outfits,soft lead is used for flashings on roofs as well as sewer pipes.
Those 50-70 rounds are impressive to look at,size does matter.

 

[tjsudbury]

Just cobbled up 10 more rounds to test soon. Thought I'd try a duplex load. Here's what I loaded.

All by weight - 4.5 grs SR4759 under 40.5 grs FFg goex behind a 550gr FN (pictured above). One cereal box card under the flat bullet base and compressed about .060". WLRM primers.

First time ever loading BP in a cartridge case. Hoping to bump up the .512" bullet to fill .515" grooves for better accuracy than I had with 5744.

So what do you think - you guys with experience with the 12.7x44r and 50-70 especially - does that load seem reasonable to you for an antique roller in good shape. I know I'm on my own here but informed comments are appreciated. My chrony should help with determining the pressure level somewhat. Accurate Arms states they used 65grs of FFg behind a 550gr bullet for their pressure limit of 22,500psi for the 50-70 - in a replica of course. An antique should be run at way less pressure.

You might want to try a wee bit more powder. Even with the smokeless, your still shooting about the equivilant of a 50-50, not a 50-70 If the chamber throat will allow it, try seating the bullet further out so that you can get more powder into the case. Your not going to blow the gun up with a bit more black powder

 

[RRCo.]

Whelen B a good source for lead are scrap yards or plumbing supply outfits,soft lead is used for flashings on roofs as well as sewer pipes.
Those 50-70 rounds are impressive to look at,size does matter.

Tire shops usually have a bucket of discarded weights.

 

[Whelen B]

Your not going to blow the gun up with a bit more black powder

Thanks - good - that was my thought too. Appreciate the input and suggestions.

However, I'm gonna try/chrony these ones first. Got 10 rounds ready to shoot now. My Lyman manual even has a lesser duplex 50-70 start charge than mine above - with even a slightly lighter bullet. To use it I would have to use much thicker wad(s) - which I didn't have - to nix any air space. I like seating no deeper than the crimp groove as pictured above. I'll report my results.

For another day - depending on my range results - I think I can get more powder in the case fairly easily even at this COAL - with a drop tube and more compression. Also, as you suggest, I can seat out another .200" to the lands if I want. But I sure do like seating to the crimp groove - especially keeping all the grease grooves and mess inside the case.

 

[Oddbawl]

None of it happened if there's no pictures of the rifle...

 

[Whelen B]

Fired off ten rounds of my duplex loads (see above). It was -15C. Fired three over my chrony and got these readings - with no crimp - 934, 912, 937. Still very poor accuracy with some still tipping thru the paper at 100yds. Also still real easy on the shoulder but slightly more abrupt punch than with 5744.

Got home and went to clean the crap out of the barrel and my brass and just remembered again why I HATE blackpowder. Filthy mess that won't go away without hours of effort. I don't understand why there are so many BP lovers. Guess I'm missin something about it all.

Pics turned out poorly too - here you are Oddbawl. Best I got today - it happened.

 

[Oddbawl]

Very cool.
I just got one myself in 50/70, doing a rebuild, tune and rust blue so I'm devouring every bit of info and input I can. Yours is in nice shape!

 

[Whelen B]

Probably found my bullet tipping problem.
Checked my twist with a tight patch and twice got about 41.5" by my measuring. From my subsequent reading I have discovered a 42" twist was common for many Rem rollers and other 50-70 rifles of the 1870s and 1880s.

My 550gr bullets which are 1.107" long are tipping and accuracy has been bad. But I just read this from an article by Croft Barker on handloading for the 50-70 which may explain my problem,

...Please note that any bullet over an inch long will wobble in flight and print oval (instead of circular) holes in your target when fired from a 1:42 twist

He assures that the Lee 450gr (see my bullet pic above on page 1) which is only .990" long will fly straight. I own that mold but have not cast with it yet. Guess I'll be doing that now.

singleshotexchange.com/handloading-the-50-70-for-a.html

 

[Whelen B]

50-70 shooting pretty accurately now

Got some 450s now - used as cast 515"+ and all the bullets are flying nose first. Used dragon lube (first time with that) and am quite happy with the results using a slightly reduced BH209 load. Chrony indicates 1130MV with those bullets which weighed 447grs sans lube. No wads or cards - just powder and finger seat bullet without a crimp. Used WLRM to start the fire (-15 C today) - instant ignition.

Here's my loaded round - all lube grooves covered at 2.240" COAL;

Shot two targets and first two bullets were kissin close in each case (1 3/16" and 15/16"). Then the third went high and more left opening up to a 4 1/2" and 6 1/2" three shot groups.

The 450gr bullet on the left is working for me as cast. The heavier one not so much - but it is sized .003" UNDER bore so didn't get a fair test.

God bless all you blackpowder lovers. Supposed to shoot better with it but my previous range session with blackpowder was enough mess for me. Watching scalding hot water accidentally pour down into my antique action's hidden regions was the last straw. Sorry - like I said - I must be missin something about the charm of that stuff. I went back to what I know - smokeless and Hoppes#9 - albeit a bulky/expensive specialty powder.