It's not necessarily about saving money. Educate yourself on what the brand has to offer before you dismiss it outright. I only brought this topic up because the Howa/Weatherby action is a quality built piece and if someone was looking for a decent precision rifle to start with without having to spend a ton of cash to get into the game, then this could be an option for them.
Great deals to be had for budget minded precision shooters...
- Thread starter 2bad4u2
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It's not necessarily about saving money. Educate yourself on what the brand has to offer before you dismiss it outright. I only brought this topic up because the Howa/Weatherby action is a quality built piece and if someone was looking for a decent precision rifle to start with without having to spend a ton of cash to get into the game, then this could be an option for them.
Prophet River never gets to list some of their stock. Just because they bump their ad, doesn't mean that they added content. They don't change their ad for each gun that arrives. I do know of at least one other dealer in Saskatchewan that had them in stock as of yesterday, because a club member purchased one from them yesterday by phone after seeing my rifle shoot several sub 1/2moa five shoot groups the day before.
It actually is quite "newbie" friendly, with very mild recoil, and the fact that it is legal for big game hunting in virtually every province, makes it a more versatile chambering. A good friend bought one as his first centerfire rifle for those reasons. He used my handloading gear to load up some ammunition, and then fired a .550" five shot group at 100 yards the same day. I consider that very good for a "newbie".
By the way, the Super Varmint in 223 is also on at clearance prices, but the price is not as good as the Varmint in 6.5x55.
Most of the "beginner" rifles recommended here are varmint based heavy barrels similar to the one that I started this thread with. I'm not recommending the base sporter model for precision shooting. I'm not making that claim and neither is anyone else here.
lol.Anytime a brand name rifle gets mentioned in this forum you can expect some banter to go back and forth. I never would have expected otherwise.
As far as 500 yard range reports you'll have to research that yourself. I have no intention on doing so in the near future. If I can dial up a load that is reasonably accurate at 200 yds. I'll be happy for the time being. I'm not accuracy testing anything with 30kph winds that frequent the Maritimes in the winter months.
I'm glad to hear the Tikka is accurate in the hands of your acquaintence. I wouldn't have expected otherwise. Tikka makes a very good quality product. The 6.5x55mm is a phenomenal cartridge but far from ideal unter the circumstances we're discussing.
It's definitely not new shooter friendly from a cost perspective. Match grade ammo is non-existent for all intensive purposes and loading your own is considerably more expensive than loading .223 Remington.
Anyone new into the sport is going to put a lot of rounds down range before they become proficient. Going the .223 route allows them to do so without breaking their pocketbook. Do the math.
How much accurate barrel life will you suspect that 6.5x55mm to last? What, somewhere around 2,500-3,500 rounds? You'd chew up a barrel fairly quickly and spend a lot of money on ammo doing so. .223 Rem's are known to have accurate barrel life expectancy approaching that of a .308 Winchester. 5,000 rounds is a reasonable minimum one should expect and I've often heard of instances that far exceded that amount.
Like you, I think the 6.5x55mm is agreat cartridge and is very flexible. Highly accurate and able to take big game, however, that's not the point here. I'd no more hunt with a heavy barrelled target rifle than I would target shoot with a purpose built hunting rifle. Hunting has no bearing on what we're discussing here and certainly shouldn't influence one's purchase decision when considering what the intent of what this rifle will be used for.
Seeing as how cost is a factor for a beginning shooter, only having to purchase one rifle is cheaper than purchasing a 223rem for target practice, and then having to purchase another rifle for big game hunting. My friend considered a 223rem briefly because of the cost of reloading, but decided to go instead with a gun that he could hunt big game with, when he was ready.
By the way the T-3 Varmint weighs 8lbs, which isn't much more than many sporter weight hunting rifles.
If you're that dirt poor that you can't buy a $150 Enfield to hunt with then I seriously doubt you're going to be in the shooting sports for any length of time, if you even bothered to get into it in the first place.
If that's the case, they can ill afford your recommendation.
Why would I use a surplus Enfield to hunt with, if I already owned a much better quality rifle, that is suitable for both target shooting and hunting.
If I ever get to the point where an Enfield is all that I can afford, I won't bother hunting or shooting.
Do yourself a favour and buy the Tikka. Obviously, you think it's the be all to end all to firearms ownership. lol You're best served by taking your own advice...
I put my money where my mouth is, perhaps you should too. Look, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out. Most people don't want to hunt big game with heavy barrelled varmint rifles or target rifles, no more than target shooters want to compete with hunting rifles. If you do, then good for you. I'm sure you're experienced enough to know what's best for you. You feel its suitable for dual purpose use, then have at er. What's good for you isn't necessarily best for everyone else.
If all we needed was one rifle and one cartridge then this site and firearms ownership in general would be rather boring. I personally don't believe that a jack of all trades rifle does anything particularly well and isn't practically suited for either task.
If you believe 6.5x55mm is a good beginner's cartridge then that's your opinion. From my perspective it is not. You don't have to go too far in this forum to see where the overwhelming majority of people giving advice to new shooters have recommended the .223 Remington and for good reason.
I think you're more interested in making your argument than giving sound advice.
If you had paid attention to my first post on this thread, you should have realized that I already had purchased one, and have been shooting it already.
I already have.
Not at all, The Tikka is actually the lowest priced centerfire rifle that I own, but it certainly serves the role of a budget precision rifle quite well. That is why I bought it.
I currently own a dozen rifles, as well as a few shotguns, and a few handguns.
With over 45 years of shooting, and almost 40 years of hunting, I have a good idea. I myself won't likely be hunting big game with the Tikka, but I expect that both the chambering, and the accuracy will make a very good longer range rifle for the price.
On the other hand, since my friend only owns one centerfire rifle, it will serve as both as a target rifle, and as his hunting rifle for at least the upcoming year. Having fired it all summer will certainly build his confidence when he hunts big game for the first time.
The title of the thread is great deals for budget minded precision shooters, and I believe that with the current pricing, the Tikka fits that description nicely.
I've owned a couple of Weatherby hunting rifles in the past - both were Vanguards and one was the entry level while the other was the much more ornate version. I recall both rifles being very accurate and well made so I'm sure the initial recommendation at post #1 is quite valid. The Tikka is also a very nice rifle - I used to own a Varmint in 6.5x55 - and, other than that calibre choice, I'd agree it is a good starting point. Either rifle would be a fine place to start but for a newbie I'd recommend .223 then .308 before I'd recommend a long action like the Swede or, for that matter, the 06.
Your first point was sticktly price point, and now its not about $$$?
The savage rifle you are so quick to bash can be rebarreled, bedded, and have a quality stock installed for less $$$ than your weatherby, with no argument. Plus the shooter wont have his ###uality brought into question by his shooting partners (perhaps mine are just a$$holes) when he tries to shoot a delightful japanese rifle made for gopher control.
I challenge you to price out what it will take to upgrade that weatherby. Given availability, which will be horrid as its a "unique" rifle, and with lower production runs for accessories it will be more expensive, period. When I personally reccomend a rifle to a newb I suggest something that will EASILY grow with them. That answer will not be Weatherby. Exactly the same reason I sold my Tikka, even though it was a awesome shooter.
You don't mind bashing everyone else's choice, so suck it up when people put a different point of view.
For people saying there are not enough bells and whistles out there to play Barbie with a 1500 but there is for a Savage etc, hooey.
The only true item missing is a classic style bottom metal, which PTG is taking for ever to release to the general public, but which is covertly available from Nosler if you order it (and stocks) for thier rebranded Howas, and they arent alone, as there is atleast one other US company building thier guns on 1500s.
Stocks, chassis, detachable AI mag hits, bases etc are all available.
To top it off, and I see no reason to hide my bias at this point, the old Sako action that is the 1500 is IMHO prefferable to the Rem 700 and the Savage line, and, IMHO better looking. It may not be as smooth as some actions out there, but I have never heard of a Howas bolt handle falling off, or needing extractor work. It is all down to personal prefference, and I by far prefer the feel and ergonmics of the Howa, but do loathe the bottom metal.
The only downside to the original post is thats its a Weatherby, not the Howa, which is nicer looking. Additionally for some time Howa has been running a better trigger on thier rifles than Weatherby was on the models made for them. The new triggers on the weatherbys should help.
I picked up a Howa 2 years ago to do a 338 or 300whisper, but am just too lazy to get on with it. Additionally I would love to do one on 7mm Mauser for a hunter, but again, too lazy.
The only true item missing is a classic style bottom metal, which PTG is taking for ever to release to the general public, but which is covertly available from Nosler if you order it (and stocks) for thier rebranded Howas, and they arent alone, as there is atleast one other US company building thier guns on 1500s.
Stocks, chassis, detachable AI mag hits, bases etc are all available.
To top it off, and I see no reason to hide my bias at this point, the old Sako action that is the 1500 is IMHO prefferable to the Rem 700 and the Savage line, and, IMHO better looking. It may not be as smooth as some actions out there, but I have never heard of a Howas bolt handle falling off, or needing extractor work. It is all down to personal prefference, and I by far prefer the feel and ergonmics of the Howa, but do loathe the bottom metal.
The only downside to the original post is thats its a Weatherby, not the Howa, which is nicer looking. Additionally for some time Howa has been running a better trigger on thier rifles than Weatherby was on the models made for them. The new triggers on the weatherbys should help.
I picked up a Howa 2 years ago to do a 338 or 300whisper, but am just too lazy to get on with it. Additionally I would love to do one on 7mm Mauser for a hunter, but again, too lazy.
I'm not sure I see a point in anything you said in your reply to my post. You seem to have gotten caught up in the excitement of defending yourself. I never said anything negative about it other than you would have been better served to post in the hunting forum.
If you bought one and want to call it a precision rifle then back it up with a range report. To me a precision rifle makes 0.5 moa groups and is capable of shooting distance. 200 yards is for hunters not precision shooters. I stand behind my statement that this should have been posted in the hunting rifle forum, then you would have gotten the positive replies you were looking for.
I'm not bashing the rifle in any way but when someone says budget precision i think back to my $550 mossberg night train that was capable of moa groups (barely, and with handloads) but had a worse trigger than my sks. I traded that one for a poly M14 and never looked back. The M14 did what I expected, it made noise every time I puled the trigger and knocked down whitetail for me when i took it hunting.
Quality comes at a price and if a manufacturer sends something out that is really cheap it usually is really cheap. Corners are cut to get something out at the price range they have targeted.
Why don't you take your new rig out to the range and show us what it will do way out there at 200 yards? Show us under 1 inch at 200 and most of us will probably agree with you that it's a great deal for an entry level precision rifle. Until then you will continue to take flak over calling a $350 rifle a precision rig.
I'm guessing that my 20" AR will make tighter groups.
Good luck
Happy new years
I wasn't rushing to defend myself as you seem to think. My initial comment was on the Vanguard Varmint model which in reality is no different than any run of the mill 700 SPS Varmint/Tactical, Savage 10/12 Varmint/Tactical, or Tikka Varmint/Tactical that is out in the market today.
It's not the basic sporter hunting model that you seem to be fixated on nor is it the $350 price tag that you are misquoting me as having said. I'd no more recommend a Vanguard sporter model as a precision rifle than I would any other hunting rifle. Your logic escapes me.
I said I wasn't going to bother shooting this rifle at longer range because of the weather and wind conditions that are present. It's simply not condusive to load development and accuracy testing.
Besides, here in NS the only way you're going to shoot "long range" is actually on a range unless you happen to enjoy target shooting during hunting season. Oh, and not to mention there's only (1) civilian range in the province that I'm aware of that can accomodate anyone wanting to shoot that far. And you just can't show up and want to shoot anytime you want as it's a private facility with their own shooting programs.
We don't have the luxury of going off into the woods whenever we wish to do so. So, it's either now or wait for the possibility to do so in the spring on said range which I am not a current member of.
I really find it rather curious how you don't feel 200 yds. is much of a challenge for precision shooting. You've obviosly heard about short range bench rest comptetitions or how some shooters practice with accurate rimfire rifles at this range to simulate the challenges of shooting .308 Winchester rifles at 1,000 yds., have you not?
No doubt 200 yds. isn't much of a challenge of this particular rifle under the circumstances and I've never professed that to be the case. I hink 1" groups at 200 yds. would be a good challenge for this rifle. I plan to do just that and I will post back on it for the benefit of others who are interested. I'm actually looking forward to doing so.
lol. You're AR must be quite the rifle if you feel that confident.
You're certainly entitles to your point of view but you are clearly misguided and mistaken on a number of key points.
My initial comments were based on the purchase of a varmint rifle that would be suitable for one to get introduced to precision shooting and that at the price mentioned, they represented a good value. Why is that so hard to understand?
I could personally care less how much or little money it takes to commission a custom build off a factory action regardless of brand. That wasn't the point of this thread, nor was it to bash any other brand.
You are simply incorrect regarding your assertions on lack of aftermarket availability. If you'd have bothered to do even some rudimentary research before having said as much, you never would have made the comment. For your benefit and for those of others who fell the same as yourself. It's not as "unique" as you're lead to believe. I'm sure this could be equally said for the Tikka that you felt you needed to sell.
This list is by no means exhaustive. I've only included several of the name brands that most here on this forum are likely to recognize.
Stocks:
h ttp://www.mcmfamily.com/mcmillan-stocks-tactical-stock-list.php#m40a1
*McMillan has a great number of stocks available for inlet, including their tactical line.
h ttp://mannerstocks.com/tactical/ *They inlet for many actions including Howa/Weatherby. They state that about 1/3 down the page.
h ttp://www.bellandcarlson.com/ *Lots of different choices with Bell & Carlson.
Triggers:
h ttp://timneytriggers.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&view=wrapper&Itemid=63
*Timney offers quality triggers.
h ttp://www.riflebasix.com/index.php?main_page=specific_rifle_search&zenid=o3rl0d7h6c9ejqrhtbgcismkq7&fire_type=1&manufacturer=7&year=2009&x=39&y=29
*As do Rifle Basix
Bottom Metal:
h ttp://cdiprecisiongunworks.com/c1/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=7&Itemid=27
*CDI offers bottom metal for DBM useage with AI mags.
h ttp://www.legacysports.com/products/detachmags.html
*Howa's US national distributor offers DBM units of its own design.
Optic Bases:
Remington 2-piece bases fit Howa/Weatherby rifles. If one were inclined to go with a single base, there are lots of choices.
h ttp://warnescopemount.com/product/maxima-steel-bases/
h ttp://www.kenfarrell.com/scan/st=db/co=yes/sf=category/se=Howa%201500/op=eq/sf=prod_group/se=Scope%20Mount/op=eq.html?id=qKNnbBau
h ttp://www.legacysports.com/products/misc_ringsbases.html
*EGW offers one piece bases.
Need I say any more?
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Now I REALLY want to get my Howa 1500 out to shoot. I bought it this spring after fondling it when the local shop was sold out of SPS tacticals. I went home and googled the f**k out of it and all the range reports I dug up showed some pretty nice groups. I dont see why ppl in this thread think a budget rifle should have to perform like a custom build, or high end factory rifle just to be considered "precision" We all have our definitions of given words and for some of us, 1/2 moa is good enough. Just cause you cant rebarrel it on the kitchen table, or have 3,428 different aftermarket parts available doesnt mean it cant be a good buy for a newbie to shoot a rifle they can learn on with good accuracy potential. I geuss it doesnt cost enough to be a precision rifle? I dunno
P.S. 2bad4u, EGW makes bases for the Howa/Weatherby actions too
We all have our definitions of given words and for some of us, 1/2 moa is good enough. Just cause you cant rebarrel it on the kitchen table, or have 3,428 different aftermarket parts available doesnt mean it cant be a good buy for a newbie to shoot a rifle they can learn on with good accuracy potential. I geuss it doesnt cost enough to be a precision rifle? I dunnoP.S. 2bad4u, EGW makes bases for the Howa/Weatherby actions too
Yes, they do. I posted a link from Legacy Sport's site where they sell them online.
Jerry, said it best some posts ago. Any rifle can be made accurate. I never intended this to be anything more than passing along some info. However, in true CGN fashion everything became a ####storm in a hurry...
Incidently, I've got one of the new Howa 1500's that have the 2-stage trigger set up. Man, for a factory trigger it sure is crisp. I bought it new and took it strait to the smith to install the remainder of a Shilen .30 cal. barrel blank I bought from Jerry @ Mystic Precision. I haven't fired a round out of it yet.
Anyone that knows me well enough on here knows I'm into Remingtons, specifically 700's. Frankly, I wanted to try something different and the guys on Sniper's Hide, whose membership base has far greater experience accross a wide range of rifle platforms, seem to think highly of the Howa/Weatherby action. After reading a variety of positive reviews there, it piqued my interest.
Have you got some pics of your rifle? Post them in the pictures and video forum under the precision rifle picture thread. I'd like to see them if that's possible. It'd be interesting from a stand-point that it's just not another Remington or Savage.
Enjoy your Howa.
Yes, they do. I posted a link from Legacy Sport's site where they sell them online.
Jerry, said it best some posts ago. Any rifle can be made accurate. I never intended this to be anything more than passing along some info. However, in true CGN fashion everything became a s**tstorm in a hurry...
Incidently, I've got one of the new Howa 1500's that have the 2-stage trigger set up. Man, for a factory trigger it sure is crisp. I bought it new and took it strait to the smith to install the remainder of a Shilen .30 cal. barrel blank I bought from Jerry @ Mystic Precision. I haven't fired a round out of it yet.
Anyone that knows me well enough on here knows I'm into Remingtons, specifically 700's. Frankly, I wanted to try something different and the guys on Sniper's Hide, whose membership base has far greater experience accross a wide range of rifle platforms, seem to think highly of the Howa/Weatherby action. After reading a variety of positive reviews there, it piqued my interest.
Have you got some pics of your rifle? Post them in the pictures and video forum under the precision rifle picture thread. I'd like to see them if that's possible. It'd be interesting from a stand-point that it's just not another Remington or Savage.
Enjoy your Howa.
Thanks for passing on the excellent information on this platform. The howa/sako/weatherby action is an excellent platform for a precision build or as is. As is, it`s superior to most factory actions and many have used it with impressive results. It`s unfortunate and getting pathetic that you were #### on for starting an informative thread.
Thanks, I appreciate the comments. I've never owned a Howa before and honestly I was a bit cautious about it at first. Once I had a good look at what features the action had to offer, I wanted to try one. Now, I'm on my 3rd. in less than 2 months. lol.
I'm glad I sold a couple rifles to make way for new ones that will hold my interest longer. I'm into shooting smaller cartridges now and these actions have a good record of reliabilty in feeding and ejecting smaller cases. My interest in the Howa/Vanguard came as a result of that.
As far as gettig s**t on here, it ain't no big deal. It's the internet and I wouldn't expect otherwise. If I can give it, I should be able to take it...
Actually one of the cheapest rifles that I ever purchased was a Smith&Wesson 1500 Varmint, which was just a heavy barreled Howa. I paid just over $300 at the time when Lovetts was closing out. That rifle would easily put five rounds into 1/2" at 100 yards. Howa makes a good rifle, and for the price that I paid it was an excellent rifle for varmint hunting and shorter range target use. If the ones at WSS had a faster rate of twist, I would likely have bought one.
