Great M14 Post from Newbie forum!

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Elwood Blues posted some well thought-out questions in the newbie forum;

So hello all,

I think it goes without saying that I am a newbie to most of this stuff so hopefully I don't get all out flamed on this forum.

Anyway a little about myself as the forum suggests...

I am living in Northern BC and have for about 4-5 years now. I am a transplanted Calgaryian here- born and raised being told that the only purpose of guns was murdering, killing, and only those up to no good would own one. However, after moving to the north I found a very different mentality- most people I ran into who had lived here for a while were quite okay with them being in the main population. They didn’t seem too panicky when someone mentioned that they had bought a new rifle, or whatnot, in public conversation and everyone DIDN’T start frothing at the mouth and talking about banning all guns.

Later I did some work for a couple of friends of mine and they couldn’t really afford to pay me in money, but they gave me a big Sears bag of wild game (various ground wild game, elk steaks, and deer….something). Anyway I researched the proper cooking temperatures and so forth and initially tried ground bear (?) in a tomato based meat sauce. I went this way as I was told the wild meat is very gamey (?), not beef like, and I just wouldn’t like it. I have to say that it turned out really quite good with some different seasonings. Later that month I grilled some moose steaks out of the Sears bag, and man were they good!! Stewed deer? Yup good as well! Moose liver- quite tasty! So anyway I started looking into hunting, but midterms came along and that took over life as they tend to do.

Fast forward to this last month when we had a bear around the area that I live where there are also a lot of children. We tried scaring it away but it just kept coming back and making a nuisance of everything and started to be more and more investigative in daylight around people. So one afternoon, one of the local dogs treed it after a short chase and someone remarked that there should be something done about it. Another one of the guys remarked that he had a bear tag and trotted off to get his rifle. Came back, got everyone one the right side of the muzzle, lined up, shot the bear in the head, and down with a thump it came. No fanfare, depressing theme music, or wives coming out of house angry about ‘a gun in our community’. The bear wasn’t going away and was dealt with humanely and safely. Great. Upon thinking of this later I thought that this might not be a bad skill to have to obtain meat, keep a property safe for kids etc., and develop better eye hand coordination.

So here I am eager to learn about the responsible use of firearms and seeing how school is done (for the time being) I actually have some time I could devote to learning a new skill.

So here’s what I am thinking. I know I have to get my PAL-R and CORE, but in the meantime I figure I can learn about all this so when all the paperwork is done and red tape cut- I can just get on with it.

So my thoughts:
-I see on the forums that a Springfield M1A is a popular firearm to own and I have always liked the look of it. Also from what I have read (please let me know if I have got anything wrong) some of the pros to this firearm are:
-Wide ownership circles in Canada (support when something goes wrong- hopefully I am in a position to still ask questions then)
-Wide aftermarket support
-Common cartridge
-Highly accurate right out of the box
-Reliability and durability even in less than ideal conditions
-Excellent service record (US military, marksmen teams military and civilian, etc.)
-Variety of models to choose from depending on application
-Semi-automatic for quick follow-up shots and not having to fight with a bolt on the wrong side of the receiver (left handed, left eye dominate)
-2 stage trigger
-Carbine length for easy maneuvering in the bush and possibly fired from horseback (ranch style rifle?)
-Flat trajectory
-I’m looking for a rifle that will be dependable, predictable, and very versatile. I have my sights set on the M1A SOCOM II. I would be like to be able to go moose hunting on the long weekend with friends and then later in the week put a bipod on the lower rail, put some match ammo in the mag, and shoot targets at a range.

-Couple things that I am not clear on is barrel length related to accuracy. I have been told that a shorter barrel is more accurate as it has less barrel vibration as the round exits the rifle, but many marksman rifles (H & K PSG-1, CheyTac M200, Barrett .50) have very long barrels- so a little confused on that issue.
-Also I have been told that the knock down power of the .308 Win is pretty weak beyond 400 yards. Any thoughts from the community?
-Are holographic sights any good for hunting or range use? Parallax free, non-reflective, and low profile.
-I’m not really opposed to saving up for a year or so to get the firearm, optics, and case. Besides, it sounds like that’s the amount of time it takes for the government to get its act in gear once everything is signed.

Whew! That’s a lost post but, I figured I would just take care of it all at once. If I have to repost sections of this message/PM other community members- so be it.

Please don’t flame me!

EB
 
I replied with this;

Great first post. Welcome!

You have done what all smart beginners should do; a lot of research, and have asked a lot of very good questions

The M14 type rifle is an excellent choice here in Canada. It is, foremost, a RIFLE, firing a full powered cartridge, and is capable of taking any large game in North America. (excepting Polar Bears.)

It is non-restricted, (you can carry and fire it outside of formal ranges), and although other similar rifles (which have been legislated into oblivion) might be my personal preference, the M1A type has been tweaked enough over time to be a reliable design.

It is accurate in a practical sense. With quality ammunition and sights it shoots more precisely and accurately than just about any of us.

Short, thin barrels do not give up anything in accuracy for a single shot or two.Longer barrels maximize velocity, as the bullet only accelerates while inside the barrel. Long barrels mean longer time accelerating. Heavy barrels slow the rate at which the barrel heats up over a series of shots, thereby delaying the inevitable deviations and loss of accuracy. BUT for the first shot or two, usually what the individual civil rifleman fires, the trade off in handiness is worth more than the additional benefit of weight and length.

Frankly, all the individual Rifleman needs is a short, light bolt action rifle with a smooth action, great trigger, a good sling, bipod and a mounted weapon light. But most of us want something else. Given the current laws, the M14 type is a great choice.

The Springfield M1A SOCOM is a good choice for a new M14 owner. Out of the box it is 99% of what anyone could want.

For less money, the compulsive tinkerer could buy a Norinco rifle and have it heavily modified by any of several members here on the board, into a rifle that meets ALL his needs, real and perceived. Lots of after market goodies for them.

.308 is fine out to as far as you will want to kill anything. Really. I used to shoot professionally, and I usually limit myself to 300m shots on game. People much further. Magnums have a slight theoretical edge, but a more difficult to shoot accurately, cost more and burn up barrels faster, etc.

Optics; Scout mount on the M1A is great. Batteries fail, so irons must be available as a back up. XS sights Big Dot gives 24/7 capability. So what glass?

#1 choice is expensive. Schmidt & Bender Short Dot.

#2 choice is good too. Mid-priced 1.5 - 4.5 power extended eye relief scope with illuminated reticle / dot. Leupold, Bushnell, Burris, blah blah blah...

#3 choice would be a red dot holographic sight. These are slightly faster up close, say to 100 meters, but lack the advantage to magnify at longer, deliberate shots. I have an extremely small red dot sight mounted at 2 o'clock atop my regular scope, but that was for work.

Take my thoughts for what they are worth, and continue to ask questions.

I will copy this post over to the Battle Rifle Forum as well.

Yours in Shooting,

Ben

P.S. Grew up in that neck of the woods. Still miss it.
 
I don't know if I would recommend a SOCOM II, 16" barrel- restricted isn't it? No point in talking about hunting game with a restricted rifle...
 
On my hunting trip i just got home from...... a 36 inch racked bull moose was taken with a 18 3/4 inch barrelled Norinco based m14s rifle, using 168 gr winnie silvertips.... one shot to the boiler room from 175 yards (on the range finder)
same rifle took a 460 lbs dressed black bear, same ammo, about 125 yard shot.
these were also the only two animals killed on our trip.
the poster is correct above in stating that a socom version of the M1A is restricted and therefore.... not legal to hunt with...... being under the 18.5" barrel minimum for nonrestricted.
 
Don't get ONE!

Get TWO of them!! What's the issue? Just buy them (did not say, "buy it..") ASAP and feed the addiction. I bought 3 of them. I'm sure 45ACPKING has half a dozen! :D

Peace be to journey!

Barney
 
EB here,


Thanks so much for the responses all so fast.

So the SOCOM II is restricted which means that I cannot go hunting with it as per this thread. So what if I got a Loaded M1A with a stainless/synthetic setup, and bought an extended cluster rail assembly, and swapped out the flash suppressor for a muzzle brake? From your collective experience would that work as a hunting/range rifle that would be non-restricted? Would it be worth cutting the barrel down to the 18.5” mark or would that involve way to much work re-tuning the gas system, modifying the forestock, and changing the orbit, of say, Neptune?

Also any thoughts on an EOTech .308 compensated holographic sight with a 4x flip-to-side magnifier? Or should I just stick with a standard style scope like most hunterish types I see? Does that have enough magnification to make longer shots in the bush and on the range?

Now from reading this forum and other websites this next question is a big one.

Recommendations for a load to hunt moose/deer with and a load to use on the range.

Thanks for all your time and patience.

EB
 
EB,

As Hungry says buy 2. go with a Norinco m305, which as we know it is a M14, stay with the original barrel length, as far as a scope, if this rifle is going to be for hunting a normal rifle scope is the way to go. Try a 3200 Elite series Bushenell scope use quality mounts and practice..... The EO Tech is great out to and including 100m, past that the dot covers way too much of your target.

With the second rifle go for the chop down 18.5, 45 ACP King is right this is an awesome set-up. Find a M1 Garand sight and install it or use the Norc sights right out of the box. Mine are both solid and hold quite well. For this rifle a EO Tech would be the stuff!! Especially if you only plan on shorter range (under 200)

Loads and rounds is a whole other topic, Both of mine like 150gr Winchester power points. Buddy of mine fires nothing but Federal 150's through his. Don't go bigger than 165gr as the rifle for some reason doesn't seem to like them.

As far as knowledge, get your butt to one of Hungry's clinics and absorb the years of knowledge he has and network with fellow M14 owners and see all the wild combinations this rifle offers. Welcome to the addiction!!!
 
Hi Elwood, and welcome!

Some thoughts: while M1A's are nice, they're nowhere near four-five times as nice as Norinco M-14s. Buy two Norcs (one of mine is actually my wife's :) ) and a pile of ammo, and spend the rest of your savings on reloading gear and working the guns up to whatever config you want (some guys like shorties, some guys wanna build SAGE EBR wannabees, some guys want to build M-21 clones, etc).

Wait until you've shot the gun a lot with the iron sights (M-14s with irons are really fun to shoot) before spending money on tacticool sights. I was planning on building a welfare M-21 with one of mine before I found out that I had more fun shooting it with irons. The more I shoot mine the more I'm coming to appreciate the basic design, and realize what a heckuva good gun it is. I may wind up just leaving one in the original config and cutting the second one down to 18.5". But I'm only going to do that if I get bored with the original config.

You could probably do worse than buy a Ruger 10/22, too; I like to say that an M-14 is just as fun as a 10/22 to shoot, but with twenty-five times the muzzle energy and eight times the range. And you can get some aftermarket sights that mimic those of the M-14 in terms of sight picture: h ttp://www.tech-sights.com/ruger3.htm

With .22LR being $40/1000 at Canadian Tire instead of $595/1000 at Marstar, you can get a heck of a lot of trigger time in getting the basics down, and the skills will transfer to the M-14. Plus, your wife and kids can shoot it without getting beat up by recoil; I've found that some novice shooters find the M-14's recoil a little intimidating. If you want a trainer with more oomph, consider an SKS and a crate of 7.62X39; that'll set you back less than $500. The SKS just is not in the same league as an M-14, though.

Buy Scott Duff's M-14 books and go to one of Hungry's clinics; the clinic is insanely informative and Hungry puts on a great show, and it's a total blast being in a room with twenty guys all racking their M-14s at once to hear them ping.
 
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rdelliott said:
Hi Elwood, and welcome!

Some thoughts: while M1A's are nice, they're nowhere near four-five times as nice as Norinco M-14s. Buy two Norcs (one of mine is actually my wife's :) ) and a pile of ammo, and spend the rest of your savings on reloading gear and working the guns up to whatever config you want (some guys like shorties, some guys wanna build SAGE EBR wannabees, some guys want to build M-21 clones, etc).

Wait until you've shot the gun a lot with the iron sights (M-14s with irons are really fun to shoot) before spending money on tacticool sights. I was planning on building a welfare M-21 with one of mine before I found out that I had more fun shooting it with irons. The more I shoot mine the more I'm coming to appreciate the basic design, and realize what a heckuva good gun it is. I may wind up just leaving one in the original config and cutting the second one down to 18.5". But I'm only going to do that if I get bored with the original config.

You could probably do worse than buy a Ruger 10/22, too; I like to say that an M-14 is just as fun as a 10/22 to shoot, but with twenty-five times the muzzle energy and eight times the range. And you can get some aftermarket sights that mimic those of the M-14 in terms of sight picture: h ttp://www.tech-sights.com/ruger3.htm

With .22LR being $40/1000 at Canadian Tire instead of $595/1000 at Marstar, you can get a heck of a lot of trigger time in getting the basics down, and the skills will transfer to the M-14. Plus, your wife and kids can shoot it without getting beat up by recoil; I've found that some novice shooters find the M-14's recoil a little intimidating. If you want a trainer with more oomph, consider an SKS and a crate of 7.62X39; that'll set you back less than $500. The SKS just is not in the same league as an M-14, though.

Buy Scott Duff's M-14 books and go to one of Hungry's clinics; the clinic is insanely informative and Hungry puts on a great show, and it's a total blast being in a room with twenty guys all racking their M-14s at once to hear them ping.
Click to expand...

X2, especially the Clinics! :dancingbanana:
 
Short barrel vs long barrel.

On most rifles the front sight sits on the barrel near the muzzle. The longer the sight radius (distance from rear sight to front sight) the easier it is to shoot well.

With a scope sight, barrel length has nothing to do with the accuracy of the sight. A shorter barrel is stiffer, so probably shoots better.

With a M14 clone the important factors for accuracy would be a trigger job and bedding the rifle. If you do that, the rifle will shoot better than you, so the feedback will be good for shooting practice.

Second the idea of buying a 22 for much more shooting practice.
 
Thanks for all the replies!!

Couple more questions:
-How reliable are the Norincos? I really haven't looked into them. Should I be worried about the action blowing up in my face after 100 000 rounds have been put thru it? Barrel falling out of the reciever? Poor rifling job at the factory? I just don't want to get it an have that feeling in the back of my head that I will just end up breaking it if I cough on it or look at it wrong. It's just that I AM firing a rifle and I want to focus on my target not the shoddy build quality and thinking 'will I ever eat solid food again'. Maybe these concerns are completely unfounded, I don't know- so here is me asking.
-What is the price for a new Norinco?
-Also who sells them in Canada anyway?

-Pelican gun cases- good or bad?

Again thanks for your time

EB
 
Elwood Blues said:
Thanks for all the replies!!

Couple more questions:
-How reliable are the Norincos? I really haven't looked into them. Should I be worried about the action blowing up in my face after 100 000 rounds have been put thru it? Barrel falling out of the reciever? Poor rifling job at the factory? I just don't want to get it an have that feeling in the back of my head that I will just end up breaking it if I cough on it or look at it wrong. It's just that I AM firing a rifle and I want to focus on my target not the shoddy build quality and thinking 'will I ever eat solid food again'. Maybe these concerns are completely unfounded, I don't know- so here is me asking.
-What is the price for a new Norinco?
-Also who sells them in Canada anyway?

-Pelican gun cases- good or bad?

Again thanks for your time

EB
Click to expand...

I doubt that any gun can really last 100,000 rounds :D
But Norc receivers are known to be excellent (better than Springfield) and solid, typically headspace seems to be on the high side with Norcs so some look for after market bolts (forgot the name that makes excellent bolts) however the word is that it's a non-issue. Do a search in this forum for M305/M1A/ bangsticks for tons of info. Also searching for "#### will fall off" will find most of Hungry's posts, he is the resident expert.
 
4500 plus rounds through the first one i ever bought........ bone stock except for it's highly modified fiberglasss stock. Not a "target" rifle by any means but she will still put bullets where i aim them and never jams or FTF's
 
EB
Try Frontier Taxidermy out of Prince Albert Sask. Marlin usually has them in stock. As for reliability? It is as reliable as any Sprinfield you will find. Frontier is one of the sponsors here so look him up. I believe he is still selling them for 469.00 with a couple mags, sling and cleaning kit if I am not mistaken. He ships anywhere in Canada so it won't be an issue getting to you.

I have never seen it happen.......but your #### may fall off if you don't buy 2!
See all you nutters at the Edm clinic!!!!
 
So, now that you are buying one...hurry up and post pics when you get it! I bought a 2007 Norc M305 about two months ago, it was my first centerfire rifle, other than an SKS, and I love it. I took it out to one of 45ACPKING's clinics here in BC, met a great bunch of Nutz, learned a heck of alot, and now I'm trying to figure out how I can afford to buy another one before my #### falls off (the problem is, if I buy another one now, my other half may start thinking about genital mutilation so it is a tossup)....
 
Welcome to the addiction

I'm a relatively new shooter (about 4 years now) and have nowhere near the experience or expertise of those who have already posted. However, as someone who was in your situation about 4 years ago, here are my thoughts for what they are worth.

First, you have no idea how much fun you are going to have. All things guns are addictive because they are so much fun. Also there are so many kinds of fun. When you ride one rollercoaster, are you happy to just keep riding the same one over and over again or do you want to try out different ones? If you drive a sports car or bike, no matter how much you love it, you're going to want to try other ones out. Accept now that whatever you buy will probably be the first of many.

Second, it's great to do your research ahead of time but nothing takes the place of actually shooting. A gun can look good on paper but you personally might not enjoy it as much as someone else.

My advice is to get a cheap 22 lr and start shooting. 22 lr ammo is 1 tenth the cost of anything else so you can shoot all day and not worry about cost. Put at least 1000 rounds through it. This will be great training for any future long gun you buy. Just buy somethiung. I bought an old Marlin bolt action for 70 bucks and basically rebuilt it. This was a great way to learn about how guns work and what can go wrong. This will also give you an idea of what you like, what you don't like, and so many other things. For example, we hear alot about sub minute of angle accuracy, basically a gun being able to shoot inside 1 inch at 100 yards. The reality though, is that most people aren't able to shoot that accurately anyway and certainly not in the field with an unsupported gun.

There are lots of other things like this that you won't pick up until you actually buy something and start shooting it. Buy something fun and enjoy before you put down your life savings on the "perfect" gun.
 
Once again thanks for all your replies.

I have been doing so more poking around and another couple of questions-
-can you drop a Norcino into a McMillan Tactical stock- for their M1A conversion? Any thoughts/experience on this?
-what is the suitablity of this rifle for hunting moose and elk?
-I'm hearing a lot of "..buy a .22LR first, and run 1 000 rounds thru it first," Recommendations for southpaws like myself? I've heard some mention of the Ruger 10/22- any others that are fun as well as a good teaching tool?

Thanks all for your time.

EB
 
If you can't get a Norinco from Marstar, they are still advertised at Frontier (site sponsor linked at the top - on their site, go to firearms -> Tactical), and off the Equipment Exchange (normally referred to as the EE). You need to apply for permission to see the forum, it will be further down. I think Weimajack has the for sale in the EE. Normally they show up in the Black Rifles section, but occaisionally people will post ads in the Milsurp EE as well.
 
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