GRI No.1 Mk.III markings

CDB18

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I was hoping the knowledgeable people on this forum could help me learn a little more about my GRI No.1 Mk.III, serial # Z14###. I have posted pictures of all the markings on the wood and metal I could see.

tang.jpg

Rear receiver

chamber.jpg

Left chamber

band2.jpg

Rear band

nose-guard.jpg

Bottom of nose guard

fore-stock.jpg

Bottom of fore stock

butt.jpg

Left butt stock

Any help identifying these markings would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!
 
Well Its an Ishapore No.1 MK3 (Indian made), I think the FR stands for factory repair and the year 1940 and then this is what I got from one of my topics asking about the markings on my Ishapore No.1 mk3 "Crown over crossed pennants with P under" George V cypher, between 1910 & 1936 found on the knox form or action body. Bolt head picture "Crossed pennants" are a feature of bolt proof and are found on the bolt head or bolt body." That should cover the second picture as for the other markings I really can't say.
 
Allrighty, here's the 64-centavo question: what does it say on the RIGHT side of the Butt Socket?????

Your rifle has been FTR'd (Factory Thorough Repair) at ISHAPORE Arsenal (near Calcutta) in India and this work was done in 1940. That's clear enough.

An FTR amounted to a complete and total rebuild to NEW condition.

Problem is that your rifle ALSO has English Proof and Inspectors' markings on it and you haven't shown us whatever is on the RIGHT side of the Butt Socket, which is where the Brits marked the things when they were manufactured originally.

Another interesting point, which makes the above even more important, is that that F and 42 on the left side in your first photo is MASKING an older marking, nearly buffed out, which ends with A........ and this is exactly the kind of type used in this exact spot to mark rifles built by Standard Small Arms. SSA punched their rifles in this spot with their initials only. In their total production from 1915 through to the end of 1917 (although a few SSA rifles marked 1918 do exist), they produced TWO percent of British-made SMLEs used in the Great War.

So you can see that we REALLY need that pic.

Hope this helps.
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BTW, I note the very low post count; welcome aboard!
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I had left out the right side as I couldn't see any markings, which I did think was unusual. Also, the receiver has the cut-out for the magazine cutoff. I figured the rifle was older than 1940 but wasn't sure. Thanks for all the info so far.

right-band.jpg

Right rear band
 
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Well, thanks for the photo!

Comes right down to it, it tells us NOTHING, but it does it in a very big way. The old girl has been SCRUBBED, which is most unusual.

Your rifle has the slot for the Cut-off. These were not made on rifles built much after the middle of 1916, when the Mark III* was approved: new rifles will be made withOUT Volley Sights and Magazine Cut-offs.

The "A", I am certain, indicates original manufacture by Standard Small Arms. Notice your Nose Cap also has Birmingham markings so it could be original to your rifle. Early in their truncated career, Standard was turning out Bodies and Bolts, which were all they had the machine-tools to do. They added more PARTS to their output as the tooling was installed and staff trained; until then, parts were made up from surplus from Enfield, although some BSA and Birmingham Repair parts also are found on them.

From this, I think what you have is a fairly-early Standard Small Arms Mark III (later redesignated as Rifle Number 1, Mark III in 1927 and so marked correctly on rebuild in 1940) which was REBUILT to new at Ishapore in 1940. By the time your rifle was made originally, SSA would have made about ONE percent of ENGLISH-made SMLEs in existence, so she started off as a very Rare Bird. Today, she is a most unusual specimen. If you carefully remove the Rear Handguard (just above the Chamber; it is on spring clips) you will be able to see the Barrel Date on the left side of the Chamber; this will tell you a bit more about your rifle.

A NEAT old thing. She has been there, done that, got the T-shirt, been worn out completely, rebuilt to new, reissued and sent out to do it all again, served again, then finally called back, stood on a rack and sold off as obsolete and not worth keeping. In the surplus-rifle game, this one is Ultimate Reality.

Give her a good home and feed her what she wants (and she will tell you what that is: mine like a Sierra 180 Pro-Hunter flatbase at 2250 ft/sec). You look after her and she will look after you; that's the deal. And remember that the best girlfriend is the one who sticks around when you need her, no mater what she looks like. Goes for rifles, too.

This one is a Keeper for sure.

Hope this helps.
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Many thanks Smellie, that was exactly the sort of information I was looking for!

I took off the hand guard and photographed the barrel and rear sight...

left-barrel.jpg

left barrel

rear-sight.jpg

Rear sight

Thanks again
 
I do not think it is a Standard Small Arms. There would be a SSA marked on the left rear of the reciever where the bolt enters, or a NRF (National Rifle Factory) which was what it became after the government took over the company. In any case the scrubbed right side is normal for Indian rebuilds.
 
John, it appears to be there, right where you said to look for it. Trouble is that there is another set of markings over top of it and the scrubbing removed a LOT. If you look really hard, you can see the "A" from the "SSA" stamp.

I have both NRF (3) and SSA (2) rifles here and checked all 5 of them carefully before I opened my fat mouth.

I am certain that this is a scrubbed and remarked SSA rifle.

Thanks for the words regarding INDIAN rebuilds. I have only 1 rifle which they have worked on and it has not been scrubbed, so isn't really much of an indication. Your collection is MUCH more extensive than my own, so you would know if anyone does.

But I am sure that the SSA WAS there on this rifle, before the scrubbing, and only disappeared under later marks, leaving only the "A" barely visible.

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I was poking around and come across the below from the Lee-Enfield (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee-Enfield) wiki...

"Note 1: "SSA" and "NRF" markings are sometimes encountered on First World War-dated SMLE Mk III* rifles. These stand for "Standard Small Arms" and "National Rifle Factory", respectively. Rifles so marked were assembled using parts from various other manufacturers, as part of a scheme during the First World War to boost rifle production in the UK. Only SMLE Mk III* rifles are known to have been assembled under this program."

Now I know that wiki-sourced research would get you laughed out of university, so I was wondering if the highlighted text is incorrect? Or did the SSA-production method lead to a 'hybrid' sort of rifle with Mk.III and Mk.III* parts?
 
If there is an SSA visibile to you It certainly was not apparent in the photograph.
So I will have to agree with what you can see, rather than what the photo shows.
On looking at the pic again and again, I can only see what possibly could be a very faint A and nothing more than that. The rifle would have completed by BSA adding the rest of the bits.
 
Wikipedia's strength is its editing policy, which permits anyone to make changes. Over time, bad information can be editied out and the remaining article will reflect a higher quality of truthfulness. Or, at least, that is the theory.

But that is also its weakness because it demands written documentation as "proof". I think that this is a weakness because it leaves out the opportunity to include anomalous, very real, facts which do not agree with the published sources. This is especially egregious when it comes to military history, as we seem to be left with whatever passed the official censors....... and that is not how HISTORY should be written. HISTORY MUST BE FACTUAL OR ELSE IT BECOMES PROPAGANDA. This means that it must include ALL the facts, even the ones which the Official Censors removed..... if we can find them and put them back in. Yes, I agree, this is "Revisionist History".... but sometimes History NEEDS to be revised in order to reflect what REALLY happened.

MILITARY History is especially vulnerable to official censorship and only partly because most reporters have a healthy regard for the condition of their own skins. The Great War started with half a dozen rounds of .32ACP being fired by an ethnic SERB in BOSNIA. Guns, grenades and poison capsules were supplied by the Black Hand, a Serbian secret society mostly within Serbian Military Intelligence. Only the FIRST HALF of this scenario was visible to the public or to reporters; the remainder was censored. The alliance system then collapsed as general mobilisation began and, by the time the armies began marching, the story was TOO BIG for ANY reporter to keep track of. But small bits of real information CAN be valuable to the enemy, so the Armies, all of them, began keeping reporters away from the line of fire. The days of Richard Harding Davis and Winston Leonard Spencer Churchill were done; they had to find new work because the situation no longer was conducive to factual reporting.

And so The Legend began. Big Bully Austria, aided and abetted by Biggest Bully Germany and its Crazy Kaiser, were PICKING ON Poor Little Serbia. What was LEFT OUT was the fact that Serbia had STARTED the whole damned affair, quite deliberately removing the ONE MAN (Archduke Franz Ferdinand) who was working to make dissension (and thus a situation which could degenerate into a general war) unlikely.

The rest of the story, the greatest single tragedy in human history, then continued under the blanket of official censorship..... with us on the side of the people who had STARTED it.

If you have been watching Wikipedia during the past 6 or 7 years, you will have seen many changes in the section on the Ross Rifles. The first time I looked at Wikipedia's article on the Rosses, I very nearly lost my lunch. It has improved a LOT since then, although it still repeats too many of the Official Truths and ignores too many FACTS which are inconvenient. The trouble is that those Inconvenient Facts are disturbing to the Official Truth, which is what has been printed and reprinted and rereprinted since 1914. I am thinking that it's just about time to step in there and bring them some first-hand research, along with things I was told personally by the men who were actually there and DID it. So we shall see.

So, you see, sometimes History NEEDS a little revision.

................... .........................

In the case of the SSA rifles, I think that if you look at things CAREFULLY, you will find that there IS a window of time in there in which an SSA rifle COULD be completed as a Mark III. Our knowledgeable friend John Sukey (who knows a helluvva lot more about these than he generally lets on) has pointed out that many of the SSA rifles were completed with parts made by BSA, which was right in the same town. The Official Story is that they were completed with parts from Enfield, close to 200 miles away. I rather suspect that they WANTED to complete the rifles with Enfield parts and might have done so at the time the very first SSA Bodies and Bolts were being made (very late in 1915) but that PRACTICALITY stepped in and pointed to this MASSIVE heap of spare parts only a few blocks away. SSA was in Birmingham, but so was BSA..... and so was the old RSAF SPARKBROOK, purchased by BSA in 1906 and now being taken back by the Government and operated as BIRMINGHAM REPAIR. This would certainly make a great deal more SENSE.

But we have the Official Story and we have Practicality. Our friend John Sukey (along with one helluvva pile of rifles) is on the side of Practicality. I think they are right, at least insofar as 90% of SSA production is concerned.

As to the differences between the Mark III and the Mark III*, the main differences were in LEAVING OFF parts which were costly to make and generally not being used. In a 300-yard war, the Volley Sights (which began at 1700 or so) were completely useless.... so they were left off. The Magazine Cutoff was 2 extra parts and extra work on the Body and it wasn't being used, anyway, so OFF it came, sealing up a place where MUD could get into the rifle. In the inter-war period, when the STANDARD reverted to the Mark III, many rifles which HAD cutoff slots were rebuilt with Cutoffs, the wood being modded to accommodate the device..... and then they were modded AGAIN when the order came that the Mark III* was to be the NEW STANDARD.

It was all a very S T R A N G E kettle of fish, one might say.

The FORESTOCK was modified to bring the right side ABOVE the Cutoff Slot. It also had NO provision for Volley Sights. This is the Mark III* stock and it may be installed on a Mark III rifle just a long as you leave off the Cutoff. Alternately, a Mark III* Forestock CAN be altered to accommodate a Cutoff and I have seen such.

But this was done, in some plants, in STAGES, depending upon the availability of parts, so it is POSSIBLE to find rifles which are HALFWAY modified to the Mark III* pattern. The first thing to GO was the Volley Sights. THEN the Cutoff went. The drift-adjustable REAR SIGHT CAP also went (and the Rear Sight Guard changed for the new adjustmentless sight), as did the rounded COCKING-PIECE; these were replaced by non-adjustable Sight Caps and flat-side Cocking Pieces respectively. Late in the War came the final change, the small-head Cross Screw for the Nose Cap being replaced with a much less-vulnerable, ugly screw with a Large Head.

My 1918 NRF rifle has ALL of these modifications, while my Mark I***, supposedly rebuilt to the same specs, has woodwork (which I installed) which HAS the "drop" for the Cut-off but which does NOT have accommodation for the Volley Sights. So we KNOW that rifles fitting neither the one specification nor the other...... transitional rifles, as it were.... actually were built.

It is my thinking that the OP's rifle would have been an SSA Body, completed as either a Mark III or a transitional rifle, damaged or worn out in Service, sent to India, pulled out of the scrap pile and REBUILT in 1940 into the rather unusual (and highly-yummy) specimen which exists today.

A Keeper, for sure.

Hope this is of some help to someone.
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The OPs rifle could well be either a early SSA made as a MkIII or a later MkIII* that had the slot added later, without the original markings to the butt socket we can never be sure which.
As for the difference between a MkIII & a MkIII*, its the cutoff & only the cutoff.
The LoC of 1916 reads in 2 parts......

Para 17622-
Rifle, Short, M.L.E., Mark III
1. Modifications.
Rifle, Short, M.L.E., Mark III*, without cut-off.
2. Introduction.

1. In future manufacture, rifles of the above-mentioned pattern may embody any of the following modifications:
(a) though (d).... the mods, omission of volley sights etc.

2. A pattern of this rifle has been approved to govern manufacture of the rifles required without cut-offs.
It differs from the MkIII rifle in that the body is not slotted and drilled to receive the cut-off and screw, but, like the Mark III, may embody the modifications mentioned at 1 above.
 
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Thanks for the LoC quotes, 5th Batt; I don't have it here.

Funny, my 1918 Lithgow is marked as a Mark III* but HAS a cutoff slot! The * is crowded, though, and could have been added later.

Wartime!
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Thanks for the LoC quotes, 5th Batt; I don't have it here.

Funny, my 1918 Lithgow is marked as a Mark III* but HAS a cutoff slot! The * is crowded, though, and could have been added later.

Wartime!
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Lithgow produced MkIII*s with a cutoff slot in 1918 (when they changed from MkIII to MkIII*) & then again in 1922/23 (when they changed back to the MkIII), the * should be inside the shield.
These (IMO) are the only true "transitional" rifles, everything else is to pattern.
 
On looking at the pic again and again, I can only see what possibly could be a very faint A and nothing more than that. The rifle would have completed by BSA adding the rest of the bits.

Must be your screen (or eyesight) but i can see the bottom half of the second S, and what could be parts of the first S, the A is quite clearly discernible
 
I tried to zoom in on the .raw file but couldn't see any more detail. I might put a better flash on and try again.
Regardless, this thread has been a terrific learning opportunity .
 
I tried to zoom in on the .raw file but couldn't see any more detail. I might put a better flash on and try again.
Regardless, this thread has been a terrific learning opportunity .

A flash wont help, try outside in a shaded spot & try different angles with camera on macro.
 
Lithgow produced MkIII*s with a cutoff slot in 1918 (when they changed from MkIII to MkIII*) & then again in 1922/23 (when they changed back to the MkIII), the * should be inside the shield.
These (IMO) are the only true "transitional" rifles, everything else is to pattern.
.... This little nugget of knowledge alone was worth reading this thread/post ! I've a 1922 Lithgow, with the "cut-off", and have occasionally wondered about the "how and why" of this. ... David K :)
 
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