- Location
- Hillbilly shack in the boonies
These have been killed with an 06 
Grizzly bullet for 30-06
- Thread starter todbartell
- Start date
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
The idea that a .30-06 might not a suitable hunting cartridge for big bears makes me smile. The key is to choose the correct bullet, and there maybe many correct bullets.
The toughest .30 caliber bullets are available in 180 gr, and many hunters prefer this bullet weight to all others in the .30-06. I am not sure a 180 gr bullet designed to survive an impact of 3500 fps this is the best choice for this application, although there seems to be little to fault the Barnes TSX on. My wife's '06 is loaded with 180 gr XLC's in case of a polar bear confrontation, but confronting a dangerous bear at close range, and shooting an unsuspecting bear at a distance are two different things.
Generally, when speaking of expanding bullets, the heavier the bullet, the larger the expanded diameter of that bullet. The larger the expanded diameter of the bullet, the proportionally larger the wound channel. As a rule, the larger the game, the larger the wound we like to see so that a quick humane kill is realized. The heaviest, traditionally constructed, .30 caliber bullet normally available to us in the North American market place, is the 220 gr round nose from a number of makers. A grizzly hunt might very well be where the heavy .30 caliber shines. Velocity from these bullets will be around 2500 fps, a velocity at which the better, traditionally constructed bullets do very well.
A word about penetration. A few posts back was a reference to Jack O'Conner saying that 180's shot right through the bear, so there was no need to use a heavier bullet. Well, I've done some shooting too, and I disagree. Penetration of bullets of similar construction regardless of weight is similar. The reason is that the lighter bullet has more speed to shed, while the heavier bullet has more mass which is more difficult to stop. If we compared two .30 caliber bullets for example, a 150 gr X bullet and a 200 gr X, we would find that the wound cavity of the 200 gr bullet was larger than the 150 gr, yet penetration would be all but identical. Increased wound volume is what comes into play when we consider using a heavier bullet, not increased penetration.
Now without taking my wife's '06 out for load testing in the 80K breeze we are enjoying here today, a look at Ken Waters' Pet loads reveals that a 220 gr Hornady round nose ahead of 56.0 grs of H-4831 produces 2470 fps and provided Waters with MOA accuracy in his test rifle, which should dispel any notions that heavy bullets do not shoot.
If you are concerned that a .308/220 might not fly flat enough for grizzly hunting, let's run it through a ballistic program and see. I punched in the following conditions, and although I am not sure about the humidity, I believe these are close to the conditions Tod will experience during the hunt;
4500' elevation
32 degrees (F)
80% humidity
10 mph cross wind (for easy figuring)
With a 150 yd zero, you are 3.5" low at 200 yards, and at 250 yards you are 9" low. Wind drift in the 10 mph cross wind is 1.3" at 100 yards and 5.5" at 200 yards. With the above mentioned load from Ken Waters, I think you'll be good to go.
The toughest .30 caliber bullets are available in 180 gr, and many hunters prefer this bullet weight to all others in the .30-06. I am not sure a 180 gr bullet designed to survive an impact of 3500 fps this is the best choice for this application, although there seems to be little to fault the Barnes TSX on. My wife's '06 is loaded with 180 gr XLC's in case of a polar bear confrontation, but confronting a dangerous bear at close range, and shooting an unsuspecting bear at a distance are two different things.
Generally, when speaking of expanding bullets, the heavier the bullet, the larger the expanded diameter of that bullet. The larger the expanded diameter of the bullet, the proportionally larger the wound channel. As a rule, the larger the game, the larger the wound we like to see so that a quick humane kill is realized. The heaviest, traditionally constructed, .30 caliber bullet normally available to us in the North American market place, is the 220 gr round nose from a number of makers. A grizzly hunt might very well be where the heavy .30 caliber shines. Velocity from these bullets will be around 2500 fps, a velocity at which the better, traditionally constructed bullets do very well.
A word about penetration. A few posts back was a reference to Jack O'Conner saying that 180's shot right through the bear, so there was no need to use a heavier bullet. Well, I've done some shooting too, and I disagree. Penetration of bullets of similar construction regardless of weight is similar. The reason is that the lighter bullet has more speed to shed, while the heavier bullet has more mass which is more difficult to stop. If we compared two .30 caliber bullets for example, a 150 gr X bullet and a 200 gr X, we would find that the wound cavity of the 200 gr bullet was larger than the 150 gr, yet penetration would be all but identical. Increased wound volume is what comes into play when we consider using a heavier bullet, not increased penetration.
Now without taking my wife's '06 out for load testing in the 80K breeze we are enjoying here today, a look at Ken Waters' Pet loads reveals that a 220 gr Hornady round nose ahead of 56.0 grs of H-4831 produces 2470 fps and provided Waters with MOA accuracy in his test rifle, which should dispel any notions that heavy bullets do not shoot.
If you are concerned that a .308/220 might not fly flat enough for grizzly hunting, let's run it through a ballistic program and see. I punched in the following conditions, and although I am not sure about the humidity, I believe these are close to the conditions Tod will experience during the hunt;
4500' elevation
32 degrees (F)
80% humidity
10 mph cross wind (for easy figuring)
With a 150 yd zero, you are 3.5" low at 200 yards, and at 250 yards you are 9" low. Wind drift in the 10 mph cross wind is 1.3" at 100 yards and 5.5" at 200 yards. With the above mentioned load from Ken Waters, I think you'll be good to go.
Yes indeed I "understand" that the .30-06 can take anything on the planet. So can the 7 x 57, so they say. Kilimanjaro Harry thought so....(was that his name?)
My point is where my comfort zone coincides with ballistics: where the desired result is to kill a nasty beastie that might want to interfere with my life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That comfort zone is not normally in .30 calibre, including .300 Wby of which I have owned a couple. I guess the one .30 cal that I would "theoretically" have considered for dangerous game was a custom gun done up by bullcoon in .30-378KT. That one had as much energy at 400 yards as the .30-06 has at the muzzle. It needed the muzzle brake that was on it.....
Anyways, I would be looking for more gun, thanks...........
Doug
My point is where my comfort zone coincides with ballistics: where the desired result is to kill a nasty beastie that might want to interfere with my life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That comfort zone is not normally in .30 calibre, including .300 Wby of which I have owned a couple. I guess the one .30 cal that I would "theoretically" have considered for dangerous game was a custom gun done up by bullcoon in .30-378KT. That one had as much energy at 400 yards as the .30-06 has at the muzzle. It needed the muzzle brake that was on it.....
Anyways, I would be looking for more gun, thanks...........
Doug
- Location
- Hillbilly shack in the boonies
tears a flowing,near choked, poor choice of pic eh
Like most everyone has said, a 200 or 220 gr NP. I took mine with a 220 NP loaded in a 300 Wby (the biggest gun I had at the time). My partner carried a 338 with 250 gr.
Is the area you put in for fairly open, or dense? Do you still have the 416 Rem?
Is the area you put in for fairly open, or dense? Do you still have the 416 Rem?
- Location
- In the clock tower!!
I use to use Nosler Partition in my 300 WM, then switched to Trophy Bonded Brear Claws. The TBBC is a superior bullet and I've had great success with it but last hunting season a friend talked me into reloading some rounds with the Swift A-Frame. WOW! They are incredible and hold together very well. They expand less jagged than the Bear Claw and penetration levels are bar none the best I seen yet.
The best part about Swift was when I emailed the company in the US to clarify some reloading specs, the next day I got a call back from none other than the president and owner of Swift who answered all my questions + gave me some great advice which really helped tune up my reloads. 100% satisfaction with Swift!
Lots of good choices here though.
The best part about Swift was when I emailed the company in the US to clarify some reloading specs, the next day I got a call back from none other than the president and owner of Swift who answered all my questions + gave me some great advice which really helped tune up my reloads. 100% satisfaction with Swift!
Lots of good choices here though.
Bullets
Don't get the wrong slant on my stating that a lot of common 30-06 bullets have killed a multitude of grizzlies. I have used premium bullets, such as the 200 grain Nosler partition, loaded heavyily with slow powder. The 150 grain Nosler partition in the 270 has worked very well for me. I was using Barnes bullets in the early 1950s, both 150 and 200 grain. Of those two the 150 gave the quickest kills on moose. However, I have stated before what a great bullet the CIL Dominion 180 grain copper point expanding was and I will state it was probably better than the Barnes bullets of that time. There have been many good bullets produced by the main line ammunition companies and loaded in their common a cartridges. Are top quality premium bullet better? Yes, but being specialized they are designed for certain qualities, either penetration or rapid expansion, for example. Standard, factory loaded ammunition has to be designed with bullets that will give fair or good results over a wide range of conditions. The standard 170 grain flat nose in the 30-30 is an excellent bullet for that class of velocity. At shorter ranges they are deadly on deer and I have seen moose drop so fast from a good 30-30 hit that one would think they were hit with a monster magnum. I have also helped look long and hard before finding a mule deer that a 7mm magnum had gone through, but didn't open up. Yes, probablly every type bullet made has failed in some cases.
More power to you people with your super magnums, loaded with all the fancy sounding bullets, I'm sure you will usually make clean kills on game and have enjoyable trips. But, don't harbor the thought that hunters using the "old fashioned calibres and common ammunition", are somehow inferior and will not make their share of clean game kills. It's been said so often for so many years, just make a good hit with the first one!
Don't get the wrong slant on my stating that a lot of common 30-06 bullets have killed a multitude of grizzlies. I have used premium bullets, such as the 200 grain Nosler partition, loaded heavyily with slow powder. The 150 grain Nosler partition in the 270 has worked very well for me. I was using Barnes bullets in the early 1950s, both 150 and 200 grain. Of those two the 150 gave the quickest kills on moose. However, I have stated before what a great bullet the CIL Dominion 180 grain copper point expanding was and I will state it was probably better than the Barnes bullets of that time. There have been many good bullets produced by the main line ammunition companies and loaded in their common a cartridges. Are top quality premium bullet better? Yes, but being specialized they are designed for certain qualities, either penetration or rapid expansion, for example. Standard, factory loaded ammunition has to be designed with bullets that will give fair or good results over a wide range of conditions. The standard 170 grain flat nose in the 30-30 is an excellent bullet for that class of velocity. At shorter ranges they are deadly on deer and I have seen moose drop so fast from a good 30-30 hit that one would think they were hit with a monster magnum. I have also helped look long and hard before finding a mule deer that a 7mm magnum had gone through, but didn't open up. Yes, probablly every type bullet made has failed in some cases.
More power to you people with your super magnums, loaded with all the fancy sounding bullets, I'm sure you will usually make clean kills on game and have enjoyable trips. But, don't harbor the thought that hunters using the "old fashioned calibres and common ammunition", are somehow inferior and will not make their share of clean game kills. It's been said so often for so many years, just make a good hit with the first one!
I hear what yur saying H4198. I remember shooting those bullets and somewhere I have a box with ones I dug out of the backstop and saved since the 60's. Never shot the bronze points points but yes on the Sabertips and the KlingKor.
I always loaded 180 Partitions but so did the rest of the World. I guess there is a reason for that I loaded them with 56.5 gr IMR 4350 just like everybody else and they shot just fine in my rifle. Then one day I saw a box of bullets on the for sale shelf at the gun store that caught my eye. It was an older style box and it held 100 Sierra 200gr BTSP's. I bought them for half price and promptly stuffed cases full of 54 gr IMR4350 and give them a try. My oh My they shot moa @ 2600fps and shook my /06 near off the bench. That's right around 3200flbs I think aint it? I shot one of those bullets into a hard maple stump then dug it out. It went in 11" and still weighed 189gr. I'd hate like f**k to be the grizz or anything else that caught one of them in the chest.
My /06 will not shoot the Barnes bullets worth even going and buying another box. Knowing I was up against a big bear I'd go with the Sierra 200 if /06 was what I was using. Apart from that It would be the Sako in .375 HH with 285 SpeerGS and 83.5gr IMR4350 @ 2720fps for about 4900ftlbs. Doubt the big gun would kill the bear much quicker but I'd feel better carrying it
I always loaded 180 Partitions but so did the rest of the World. I guess there is a reason for that
I loaded them with 56.5 gr IMR 4350 just like everybody else and they shot just fine in my rifle. Then one day I saw a box of bullets on the for sale shelf at the gun store that caught my eye. It was an older style box and it held 100 Sierra 200gr BTSP's. I bought them for half price and promptly stuffed cases full of 54 gr IMR4350 and give them a try. My oh My they shot moa @ 2600fps and shook my /06 near off the bench. That's right around 3200flbs I think aint it? I shot one of those bullets into a hard maple stump then dug it out. It went in 11" and still weighed 189gr. I'd hate like f**k to be the grizz or anything else that caught one of them in the chest.My /06 will not shoot the Barnes bullets worth even going and buying another box. Knowing I was up against a big bear I'd go with the Sierra 200 if /06 was what I was using. Apart from that It would be the Sako in .375 HH with 285 SpeerGS and 83.5gr IMR4350 @ 2720fps for about 4900ftlbs. Doubt the big gun would kill the bear much quicker but I'd feel better carrying it
Tod has sold all his big guns, including 416, 338 RUM etc...He sold them because he is a pansy.
face facts Bartell..The 30-06 is NOT up to the job, and you are going ot ####ing die no matter what stupid bullet you use...
face facts Bartell..The 30-06 is NOT up to the job, and you are going ot ####ing die no matter what stupid bullet you use...
I don't think anyone is going to say an '06 isn't enough gun. we all know it is. it's shot placement that counts more than anything else. But in my opinion only, I feel more comfortable with more horsepower. Just a quick story, the only time I have ever really been affraid, is when I was hunting in the mountains. I came to an opening to a clearing in a valley. As I stepped into the clearing, fear wen't through my body. I couldn't move foward even if i wanted to. I've been there many times before, but this time it was different. I knew somthing bad was there, waiting for me, and then i could only describe it as a faint scent of somthing almost 'mouldy' Kind of a wet dog/swampy smell. Not the best discription, but you get the idea. I had a .300 Win, but at that instant, it felt very, very small. I got out of there, but that rifle was at the ready. For a few moments I thought I could sense whatever it was following me, but I never saw anything. It could all have been in my head, as I said, I never actually saw anything. Regardless, it was very frightning, and my .300 was very unassuring to say the least. I think you could debate this whole issue about what cartridge, but unless your there, and know for sure, I have the feeling your going to wish you brought somthing bigger. Again, my opinion only of course.
We are talking about an animal that can dispatch you in a hurry if things don't go right. I say make as big and as effective a hole in it's vitals as possible. However big and effective don't always go hand in hand.
A 200 grain in TSX sounds about perfect! Good luck on the draw!
A 200 grain in TSX sounds about perfect! Good luck on the draw!
Last edited:
Thanks grnhawg for putting a technical answer onto my gut reaction. Like I said before, yes I know that the .30-06 is "CAPABLE" of doing the deed, but THIS old fart needs a large margin of error for the oh#### factor. Which, by the way, has been a pretty steady companion for most of my hunting career! If you plan for the worst, then by golly anything less than that is gravy.
Doug
Doug
pharaoh2 said:
Be glad you never saw anyhting...Your experience sounds pretty familiar, icluding the wet dog smell...Unfortunately I wans't smart enough to listen to my gut instincts like you did, and I kept going forward...
