Grizzly Rifle

Slamffire, I am really interested in this.

The reason I ask is I know a guy who has hunted up here with a 458 Win, and he uses the softest bullet he can find, the Hornady 405 gr. Of course that bullet will have shed a lot of velocity by the time it gets to 200.

Ted
With apologies to the OP for the serious derail of the original question posed to this thread. ;)


:confused: Not familiar with a Hornady 405gr. At a local gun show fairly recently, I 'lucked' into a sizeable quantity of Remington 405gr. Those, along with a hard cast 405gr LFN BB I get supplied with from a friend locally, I've set aside for use,'primarily' in my Marlin GBL in 45-70.
 
45 caliber 300gr X bullets impacting at 2300+ fps also work great. One shot DRT kill using my 45-70 Ruger No.1 on my 6x7 Bull Elk. However, the skinnier 416 has better ranging characteristics while still having sufficient bullet diameter to transmit shock. :p

There's a 458 Remington 405gr FN and PRVI 405gr FN. I've used the Remington 405gr FN in my Marlin 45-70 at 1850 fps MV. This bullet will over-expand if impact speed is high. Here's an image of this bullet recovered from a Bull Moose. A raking shot that smashed through the shoulder, severed the spinal chord and lodged in the neck. Impact speed was about 1600 fps. A DRT kill. Total penetration was only about 15 inches or so.

I prefer the Swift A-Frame 400gr FN in the Marlin. Better penetration through controlled expansion.

DSCN1650.jpg
 
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The infamous "DRT/bang flop". A very frequent occurrence on the internet and very infrequent in the real world.

I've witnessed two bang-flops on black bears. One was a fellow I was guiding. He was using a 30-30. When I walked up to the bear, I asked where he was aiming. He said, the front shoulder. I replied, you got him right by the ear. The second bang flop was one I shot in the neck with a 303Br. I've also had one bang-no flop. That was a small blackie I shot with the 44 mag. He was lying down, shot through the lungs, and never got up.
Many years ago I shot a 400 pound plus (I think about 418 lbs if I remember correctly) bear in early May just out of hibernation here in NB, with a 444 marlin. He went down with every shot, but just as fast got back up again. Six shots in total before he stayed down. With every shot he was coming closer. I don't think he knew where the shots were coming from after the first one, and was just confused, but I'm not sure. I was standing on the ground at the time and fired the first shot as he was running by about maybe 25 or 30 yards away. He was very unhappy, and I was glad at the time that the language coming out of him wasn't translated into English. I was nervous to say the least.
 
....Many years ago I shot a 400 pound plus...,with a 444 marlin. He went down with every shot, but just as fast got back up again. Six shots in total before he stayed down. With every shot he was coming closer....

Rather unnerving! :eek:

I've had this kind of thing happen with an aggressive Bull Moose that kept getting back up and approaching until I brained it. Reflecting upon that experience it was time to go buy a more powerful rifle which was my 416 Rem. Mag. Sako AV Hunter. ;)

sako.jpg
 
I thought they were Hornady, Johnn. Maybe they were another make.

I do remember that they were round nose, and not 500 gr.
Ted

Not a problem. Just thought I'd mention it incase Hornady had recently brought them out and if so, ;) I'd attempt to hunt down a supply to try out.
Here's a couple of quick older photos of basically what I have available for use in 45-70 and 458WM.
Cast;



Jacketed;
Haven't updated the photo to show those recently acquired 405gr Remington I made mention of earlier. They are very similar in profile to the 400gr Speer.

 
I've witnessed two bang-flops on black bears. One was a fellow I was guiding. He was using a 30-30. When I walked up to the bear, I asked where he was aiming. He said, the front shoulder. I replied, you got him right by the ear. The second bang flop was one I shot in the neck with a 303Br. I've also had one bang-no flop. That was a small blackie I shot with the 44 mag. He was lying down, shot through the lungs, and never got up.
Many years ago I shot a 400 pound plus (I think about 418 lbs if I remember correctly) bear in early May just out of hibernation here in NB, with a 444 marlin. He went down with every shot, but just as fast got back up again. Six shots in total before he stayed down. With every shot he was coming closer. I don't think he knew where the shots were coming from after the first one, and was just confused, but I'm not sure. I was standing on the ground at the time and fired the first shot as he was running by about maybe 25 or 30 yards away. He was very unhappy, and I was glad at the time that the language coming out of him wasn't translated into English. I was nervous to say the least.

QUITE a few years ago I purchased, and still have, a Marlin 444S. Most of the use it has seen has been on Moose. I did find the performance using the 265gr Hornady in reloads, to be a noticeable improvement over the initial Remington factory loads.
 
two trains of thought.....great big nasty single bullet energy vs fast followup shots....always with good quality bullets that penetrate...375 ruger vs 338 in a BAR vs 45-70 lever vs a pump remington in 35 whelen.... all with the correct ammo....after 30 plus years I am still not sure what the answer is....of course when I was charged by a grizzly I was armed with a long barreled 12 gauge pump...I decided on a warning shot into the dirt between him and I and that solved the problem....
 
two trains of thought.....great big nasty single bullet energy vs fast followup shots....338 in a BAR vs...,vs a pump remington in 35 whelen....

I've considered quick repeat firepower and have also had some one shot DRT kills using my 35 Whelen Remington 7400 autoloader on Elk and Deer.

If the first shot is f'd up then subsequent heart/lung shots usually have little effect because the animal is pumped up on adrenaline. Better to direct a follow up shot to the brain.

However, my 7400 is a great rifle for dispatching multiple targets with well-placed shots in quick succession. ;)

Remington%207400%2035%20Whelen_b_zpscpqda6eg.jpg
 
Got rid of my 7400 carbine in 30-06 was the most unreliable long gun I have ever owned.

I would not trust my life with one.
 
Only folks that don't mind wasting meat that is. Oy vey, what a mess. For pest critters at distance though, the .50 Browning is a beauty.;)

Actually Rick at ATRS has shot several with the 50 BMG. Shot placement is critical...well behind the shoulder or facing through the brisket. No high shoulder shot BS with the BMG!
 
I've considered quick repeat firepower and have also had some one shot DRT kills using my 35 Whelen Remington 7400 autoloader on Elk and Deer.

If the first shot is f'd up then subsequent heart/lung shots usually have little effect because the animal is pumped up on adrenaline. Better to direct a follow up shot to the brain.

However, my 7400 is a great rifle for dispatching multiple targets with well-placed shots in quick succession. ;)

Remington%207400%2035%20Whelen_b_zpscpqda6eg.jpg

So...you've found circumstances where you needed to shoot multiple game animals with your autoloading Whelen? I'd sure love to see photos of that battlefield.
 
I've considered quick repeat firepower and have also had some one shot DRT kills using my 35 Whelen Remington 7400 autoloader on Elk and Deer.

If the first shot is f'd up then subsequent heart/lung shots usually have little effect because the animal is pumped up on adrenaline. Better to direct a follow up shot to the brain.

However, my 7400 is a great rifle for dispatching multiple targets with well-placed shots in quick succession. ;)

Remington%207400%2035%20Whelen_b_zpscpqda6eg.jpg

So...you've found circumstances where you needed to shoot multiple...

;)...targets.
 
Actually Rick at ATRS has shot several with the 50 BMG. Shot placement is critical...well behind the shoulder or facing through the brisket. No high shoulder shot BS with the BMG!

I't would be fun to play with a Zastava .50 using hardcast heavies like the CBE 975 gr. bombs @ 1500 fps. Even at this lower velocity, these buggers would sail right through buffalo sized critters at a mile+.:)
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Its common for hunters to compare cartridges on a ballistics table then underrate the 9.3X62; for some time I was guilty of this myself. Interestingly, after being witness to hundreds of kills during his 10 years as a professional hunter in Kenya, Finn Aagaard, and his contemporaries, expressed the opinion that the reaction of game hit with the 9.3X62, was indiscernible from game hit with a .375 H&H. How can this be?? The H&H shoots heavier bullets, faster, producing more energy!! The trouble is that using kinetic energy as a measure of killing power is a red herring, what's important is how that energy is imparted to the target.

During its heyday, the secret of the 9.3's success was in the design and construction of it's 286 gr hemispherical nosed, parallel sided, soft point bullet, combined with a modest velocity. By contrast, the .375 typically used tapered bullets, that had thicker jackets and harder cores to withstand higher impact velocities. Target density is an important consideration when choosing a bullet, whether for prairie dogs or elephants. A bear, even a big bear, isn't heavily constructed like some African or Asiatic game, so choosing a bullet designed to fully expand and still produce 30" of penetration in three quarters of a ton of African buffalo, with its inch thick skin, overlapping ribs, dense muscle, and massive bones, quite likely won't produce optimum performance if used on an 800 pound grizzly. Of course shooting him through both shoulders, the spine, or a frontal chest shot with a hard bullet won't do him any good, but it will do it no better than the softer, slower 9.3.

Mike that post reminds me Don Heath in a discussion in Harare, a few years ago ...

when 9.3x62 came in the discussion and why he loved so much, his simple answer was it works ... and John Taylor sum up in his book African Cartridges.

the original velocity was 2175 fps with 285-286 grains then 2350 fps with some powder improvment. if it works for those hard workers in the bush against some animals that came to destroy the crops or cattle it should work for us ...

in those days we have the choice of bullets and there is only one to avoid ... for the 9.3x62-74r.

in those days of hunting we need a strong bullet only for bison if needed ...
 
I have shot a large number of Black bears in the past 50+ years. [not too many grizzlys] Was involved in "bear control" for 3 years.
Shot most of these with the 30-06, but experimented with a few other chamberings over the years.
"DRT" is a very elusive goal if you are shooting game animals, regardless of the cannon you are using.
Bears are particularly hard to anchor on the spot, unless the CNS is hit. Grizzly bears are bigger, so the
principle applies in more strength. The 9.3x62 is a very good performer, and will do the job about as well
as any of the suggestions on here. D.
 
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