Grizzly Rifle

Small isn't the issue, it's always guys wanting to overgun, but usually the wrong way. Many folks figure you want a .375 H&H with 350gr TSXs or a .416 400gr or .458 500gr and a very stiff bullet. There is nothing wrong with a .416 but Grizzlies just aren't that hard to kill and respond heavily to shock from speed, I'd rather a client uses a .300 with a 180gr than a .458 with a 500gr. Both will absolutely kill it, but the .300 will be a lot easier to carry, recoil less, and will drop it every bit as fast.

On minimum for Grizzlies I'd like to see .30-06 and up, I get the odd left field enquiry with a .45-90 or .405 or what have you, most aren't booking and like to chat at the trade show booth and take a card. Most guys who travel and hunt have figured out early that a .30-06, 7 Mag, .300, .338, or .375 are the Big Five travelling hunter's chamberings. Those who hunt a lot in varied places that choose something other than one of those generally select something that's in that same velocity and energy range.

This all said, if someone wanted to use a 6.5x55 or .280 I'd say absolutely with zero concerns, if that's what they shoot well past 200 and they know their gun.
 
My 45-70 Ruger No.1 300gr X at 2600 fps vs. my Sako 85 Kodiak 375 (21.25" barrel) 300gr AB at 2450 fps. More energy from the 45-70 out to 200 meters. Comparable trajectories out to 300 meters. My 45-70 is a nicely balanced compact rifle that when properly handloaded packs considerable power. My Kodiak is also a great rifle.

I probably wouldn't attempt a shot much over 100 meters on big Bear with any rifle. Get much closer if I can. More fun that way.

45-70 Ruger No.1
300grX_45-70_No.1_zpsap4kkgkf.jpg


375
300grAB_375_zpsbnvnxxb5.jpg
 
c-fbmi said:
Yep Ardent, I too have found that if you smash something with an appropriately constructed bullet for caliber with a muzzle velocity of 3100 fps or better, things tend to die right there much more often than not. I have found Accubonds to be more spectacular than Partitions, but more often than not do not exit.......which is irrelevant when the bullet goes where it's supposed to. The more shock and energy you can impart on an animal, combined with proper shot placement, the quicker the animal succumbs to the injury. I have even found that some fringe shots on animals more prone to shock, can be just as lethal with high velocity impacts. I have seen sheep and deer succumb almost instantly to what should have been a non-instantly lethal shot, however the shock from the 30 caliber magnum with 180 gn bullets at nearly 3200 fps was just too much for their system to absorb without shutting down.
Bears are not so fragile but add velocity to a well constructed bullet put into the right place and you will have a dead bear considerably quicker, if not instantly. I have determined through my hunting and observing animal reactions to hits, that a 200 gn 30 cal bullet started at 3100 fps or better, is one of the most devastating bullets on game of all NA sizes. Hence my love for my 300 Wby and my great respect for the 300 RUM.........even the 300 WM which will get it out at 3000 fps when properly loaded, is not to be sneered at, by any means and is a fantastic killer of thin skinned game, right up to and including big bears and bison. Of course the 340 is just more of a good thing..........

After having hunted with many guides and PHs, I grasp exactly what you are saying.........not one of all the people I know in the industry would recommend anyone bring a single shot, especially for critters that can bite back, and no one would recommend a 45-70. It just makes their job harder and more dangerous. With the 45-70 one must now put themselves and their hunter in much closer proximity to the bear to assure good placement and a potentially good hit. Anytime one can add an extra 50 or 100 mtrs between you and the bears at the shot, it is a good thing, especially for spot and stalk grizzly hunting...........stand hunting is different, I suppose, but I have never done this as baiting is not legal in the Yukon.
There is a term in the industry for people who wish to hunt with a rifle or cartridge that is way out of the norm.......and it isn't very complimentary.
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Nothing there I would argue with, well put all counts Douglas. I used to purport much more moderate chamberings but the more things I see get shot the more I'm a fan of speed, it's true what they say, it kills. Seems most things that can get to the animal and arrive with 2400-2500fps get the job done the way I like. If there's more speed than that all the better.
 
Slamfire said:
My 45-70 Ruger No.1 300gr X at 2600 fps vs. my Sako 85 Kodiak 375 (21.25" barrel) 300gr AB at 2450 fps. More energy from the 45-70 out to 200 meters. Comparable trajectories out to 300 meters. My 45-70 is a nicely balanced compact rifle that when properly handloaded packs considerable power. My Kodiak is also a great rifle.

I probably wouldn't attempt a shot much over 100 meters on big Bear with any rifle. Get much closer if I can. More fun that way.

45-70 Ruger No.1
300grX_45-70_No.1_zpsap4kkgkf.jpg


375
300grAB_375_zpsbnvnxxb5.jpg
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When I'm home I'll post some more representative ballistics. ;) The .375 Mag will go way, way faster than that. And an important question on big bears is how many have you hunted and where. Lots of variety in that field and a lot of understably misguided notions.
 
A 24 to 26" barrel 375 should do 2500 to 2600 fps with a 300gr bullet. However, my shorter barreled Kodiak won't safely do more than about 2450 fps. :(

But for 22/21.25" barrel lengths my 45-70 No.1 has more energy than the 375 out to 200 meters. :)
 
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Slamfire said:
A 24 to 26" barrel 375 should do 2500 to 2600 fps with a 300gr bullet. However, my shorter barreled Kodiak won't safely do more than about 2450 fps. :(

But for comparable barrel lengths the 45-70 No.1 has more energy than the 375 out to 200 meters. :)
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This is getting fun. ;) You've got a favourite here and I respect that, but look for the moment at weights. You're handicapping a considerably superior cartridge with one bullet weight you can match although not on Bc, from one particular single shot rifle. We both know you've chosen for sport and conversation to ignore that just as you've stepped your No.1 single shot .45-70 example down to the lightweights to speed it up, so can the .375. I don't shoot 300gr in .375 as on Grizzlies it's less effective than much faster 235gr-270gr, 300s are for buffalo and provide no benefit on Grizzlies in a .375. At 235grs, 250grs, 260grs (Barnes even has a 2,841fps 270gr load published) the .375 is looking pretty on big brown coloured bears. All all these will shoot out of your Sako or my Merkel, or any other .375 we can find not just one rifle. :)
 
Same with the 340 Wby, which I checked the sighting of last night with 225 gr bonded cores at 2960 fps. There are more than a few powders that can start that bullet at, or very close to, 3000 fps. Moose, bears, and bison, all go down quickly using that load.

Having said that, one of my 9.3X62s will be the first to be taken out of the safe next week. ;)
Ted
 
Shock seems to correlate with impact speed as well as bullet frontal area. You could back off impact speed (to a point) using a wider bullet and still develop considerable shock. A 45 probably doesn't need to go quite as fast as a 375 to develop devastating shock.

A big Bull Elk I shot broadside through the mid shoulder at 100 meters with my high speed 45-70 Ruger No.1 piled up instantly. Never seen an animal that big drop like that. Based on that experience I'm confident (or I hope:)) a big Bear will pile up just like that when shot with my Ruger No.1.

I haven't used my 375 yet and really should take it on an upcoming hunting trip to try it out. I typically hunt in timber where ranges are close, shots are brush-obstructed, and shot angles can be unfavorable. Therefore I have chosen the Woodleigh 300gr RN at 2450 fps MV. A lower speed heavy for caliber blunt bullet to maximize shock, increase penetration and to minimize deflection through brush.

For long range applications in open areas lighter bullets is the way to go. The trajectory and downrange energy of the 235gr Raptor bullet in the 375 H&H Magnum loaded to maximum speed is phenomenal.
 
Ardent said:
Seems most things that can get to the animal and arrive with 2400-2500fps get the job done the way I like. If there's more speed than that all the better.
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I have never shot a grizz, and likely never will..... but even on lowly whitetail and boar as well as black bear and especially elk, this is my personal belief as as well......

Tracking is a skill I learned over time, and one I prefer not to use....

This is why I will never subscribe to the 30-30 crowd or the .45-70 crowd...... of course they will do the job if used "right".... but a perfect double lung or heart shot always yields better results with a speedier cartridge.....
 
If you read the old literature, the 45-90 seems to have been the Grizzly gun of choice for those of means.
 
Slamfire said:
Shock seems to correlate with impact speed as well as bullet frontal area. You could back off impact speed (to a point) using a wider bullet and still develop considerable shock. A 45 probably doesn't need to go quite as fast as a 375 to develop devastating shock.
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Taylor thought so but I have struggled to find evidence of it right up to .505. Modern terminal ballistics are wholly dependent on expanding bullets and speed, we moved past frontal area being an important factor an awful long time ago. If we were talking 2" vs 1/4" holes I may concede a point, but we're talking a tenth of an inch.
 
what i do not like about those bullets is that for grizzly they will maybe destroy the skin ... multiple parts going that fast are really destroying stuff ...
 
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