Group size and velocity mystery?

logan1080

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I have a load fairly dialed for my 300wsm. Just finished seating depth testing. My velocity is pretty much always around 3030 feet per second. I was testing bullet jump at 0.050”, 0.060” and 0.070. The 0.060 group shot 2” at 265 yards. The best of the day but the velocity averaged 2926 fps with an extreme spread of 106. This load usually has an ES of 10 to 15 fps. Why would that specific seating depth make that much difference compared to the other two? I’m leaning towards weak batteries in a cheap shooting chrony.

Also this is my second time testing .070” and both times it shot the tightest group by far with the exception of one flyer that lands about 4” from the rest of the impacts. Any idea as to why? None of my other test loads had a flyer in it. They were all consistent. The images are two groups at 265 yards with the 0.070” bullet jump.
 

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Following this thread for sure, always good to learn from the people that know!
 
Hornady has some podcasts on this. 50 and 51 I think. Check them out, my experience is they know what they are talking about there. Otherwise that is a really long reply lol.

Did you foul your barrel? Even my good rifles like three fouling shots for low SDs. Though in your case that seems extreme, mine drop from 13 fps SD to 7 fps SD. My guess is something is off with your powder charge or maybe neck tension issues with that much of a jump.
 
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Hornady has some podcasts on this. 50 and 51 I think. Check them out, my experience is they know what they are talking about there. Otherwise that is a really long reply lol.

Did you foul your barrel? Even my good rifles like three fouling shots for low SDs. Though in your case that seems extreme, mine drop from 13 fps SD to 7 fps SD. My guess is something is off with your powder charge or maybe neck tension issues with that much of a jump.
Barrel was fouled. Went out again and on the 0.060" group, all velocities were back up in the normal range with an ES of 20. I don't know what went on. 5 shot group again with the 0.070" seating depth and again, 1 flyer.
 
It could be 1 of 25 things. Difference in air temperature, chrony malfunction, reloader error, loose primer pockets, bad powder, primers, scale error, different box of bullets, shooter error, wind etc.
***Note*** In my experience when shooting at the gun range, I "WILL NOT" shoot tight groups if I don't bare-down and concentrate, and only squeeze that trigger when there is absolutely no motion with the reticle.
 
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I have a load fairly dialed for my 300wsm. Just finished seating depth testing. My velocity is pretty much always around 3030 feet per second. I was testing bullet jump at 0.050”, 0.060” and 0.070. The 0.060 group shot 2” at 265 yards. The best of the day but the velocity averaged 2926 fps with an extreme spread of 106. This load usually has an ES of 10 to 15 fps. Why would that specific seating depth make that much difference compared to the other two? I’m leaning towards weak batteries in a cheap shooting chrony.

Also this is my second time testing .070” and both times it shot the tightest group by far with the exception of one flyer that lands about 4” from the rest of the impacts. Any idea as to why? None of my other test loads had a flyer in it. They were all consistent. The images are two groups at 265 yards with the 0.070” bullet jump.
Is the flier in the same position in the string on both occasions
 
I would run each loaded cartridge on a concentricity device to make sure each round was within tolerance and repeat the test. check neck and bullet runout. at least that is where I would start anyway.
 
I have a load fairly dialed for my 300wsm. Just finished seating depth testing. My velocity is pretty much always around 3030 feet per second. I was testing bullet jump at 0.050”, 0.060” and 0.070. The 0.060 group shot 2” at 265 yards. The best of the day but the velocity averaged 2926 fps with an extreme spread of 106. This load usually has an ES of 10 to 15 fps. Why would that specific seating depth make that much difference compared to the other two? I’m leaning towards weak batteries in a cheap shooting chrony.

Also this is my second time testing .070” and both times it shot the tightest group by far with the exception of one flyer that lands about 4” from the rest of the impacts. Any idea as to why? None of my other test loads had a flyer in it. They were all consistent. The images are two groups at 265 yards with the 0.070” bullet jump.

There are a hundred different things that could explain the .06 jump, but you'll need more data to get any kind of conclusion.
Or, because it likes .07 better, you could just forget about .06 altogether and focus on improving your results with the recipe that works best for you.

As for that first shot flier - was the barrel cold? was the barrel clean? both can cause the first shot to wander a bit. Was there a gust of head wind? Was it a very hot or cold day? Heat off your muzzle on a cool day will cause mirage that can shift your POI down range. At longer ranges (say >100m), this is amplified.

Then there are the less likely causes, like bedding problems, forend interfering with barrel harmonics, shooter error, reloading process error, etc.

Point is, there're so many possibilities, all you can do is keep shooting and narrowing down your load and your process until everything is consistent enough for you to be satisfied.

Good luck!
 
OP, I've had that issue with more than one rifle.

Some can be very finicky, especially those that have been "weight reduced" by using light stocks and ultra thin barrels.

I've been using a Remington 700 Mountain Rifle for hunting this fall. When I first started shooting it, groups were abysmal at best.

I pillar-bedded the laminated stock and glass-bedded it afterward. This rifle is a dream to carry and comes up perfectly to my shooting eye, without having to search for the scope.

Even after all of this, I had the same issue you have.

I removed the scope and bases, cleaned up the threaded holes, then put it all back together, being sure to make sure the screws and bases were not moving around.

The scope is a H5 Swarovski and parallax is excellent.

None of it worked and this is usually where I stop fooling around and get out a different rifle.

Then it dawned on me, I had this issue before with similar rifles, such as Remington Model 7 types with pencil thin barrels.

That meant I had to start looking at my handloads.

The first thing I did was take 20 rounds to the range, shoot them from a cold barrel, and set the cases that shot fliers aside.

I weighed those cases, as well as the others, they were close but a bit heavier than those which didn't shoot fliers. They were also "longer"

That meant the necks had to be trimmed, which brought the weights close enough.

Then, I reduced the powder charge, of H100V, by two grains. I left seating depth alone because the rifle was only throwing odd flyers and the groups were very good.

I ended up reducing the powder charge another grain, before the fliers, which wasn't my fault, stopped.

We all chase velocity, it's normal. High velocities make us feel good and when the cartridges shoot well with high velocities, even better.

However, when we try to push the envelope, and pressures increase, they do so erratically, once they've reached a certain level.

When this happens, you get different harmonics and unexplainable fliers, regularly.

This can be very hard to track down. Especially when there aren't any visible pressure signs. Not only that, the load may shoot extremely well in another rifle, but give issues in the one you're shooting.

Check the torque on the scope mounts and rings, then check the receiver screws to make sure they aren't loose or to tight, causing stock crush, then run a piece of paper under your barrel, between it and the stock for free float and that it isn't touching anywhere.

Some older stocks have a "bedding" block at the front of the fore-end, to create upward pressure on the barrel. This is to settle down harmonics and can create "fliers" as the barrel warms up. Sometimes it's prudent to remove that block and sometimes it isn't.

If your rifle's bedding is sloppy, then no matter what you do, until its glass bedded, you're going to be chasing a rainbow.
 
Small sample size data is misleading, both ways.

Check out the Hornady podcasts on sample size, bullet dispersion, and mean radius to measure precision
 
Those Hornady podcasts were interesting for sure but I do not have the time in the reloading department to go through 30 round sample sizes. The flyer is always a vertical flyer. The next time at the range I’m going to shoot two 10 shot groups. One at 0.050” jump with 64 grains (my most consistent load thus far) and one group at 62 grains. This weight was very promising early on but I left it as I was seeking higher velocity. 62 grains was still a very solid 2930 FPS average with an ES of 7.

Rifle torques have been checked and checked again. Barrel is always fouled prior to grouping and allowed to cool between shots to reduce variables. Cases have not been weighed but are always FL sized, trimmed have been neck turned, and bullet runout checked as well. I make them as consistent as I can with the equipment I have. I also measure off the ogive for COAL,

I’ll report back after my next range trip.
 
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