Ar180shooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Ottawa, ON
So you're essentially shooting through the hole you made with the first shot at 200 yds?
I could (maybe) believe 1/4 MOA @ 200, but not 1/4", and especially not with irons.
Grouping at 100 yards and 200 yards?
- Thread starter USP
- Start date
So you're essentially shooting through the hole you made with the first shot at 200 yds?
I could (maybe) believe 1/4 MOA @ 200, but not 1/4", and especially not with irons.
Yep - 1/4 to 1/2 inch - 200 yds. - With witnesses - some on this forum.
Nope - not irons - Aimpoint micro.
The $1500 Bald Eagle rest , absolutely no wind and 3/4 lb trigger is the reason, not my skill.
I didnt believe it either when I did it - thought it was a fluke - until I repeated it
one LOL
lol ok, I get that my skills shooting offhand without an optic arent that hot. Any suggestions or tips? I have been trolling AR15 reading the stickies but it seems not alot of people shoot with just irons anymore, unsupported.
Hell, 1/4" at 200 with a 10" AR? I think we are in the presence of the best shooter in the world!
USP: Look at how guys like David Tubb stand when they shoot standing/offhand. At the end of the day, it comes down to tons of perfect practice makes perfect.
*edit- found you a pic
- Location
- currently downrange
(The Real) C7/C8 grouping standards for the CF
C7 pam is not the training standard for marksmanship. The Operational Shooting Programme, (AKA Shoot to Live in the past) is the standard. Very few units actually follow the proper programme properly to their detriment and skip straight to the test to save time.
For Initial training (recruits) CF standards for Prone (supported) shooting at 25 meters:
4x 5 round groups at Fig 11 with a 75 by 100 mm white aiming mark in the
centre.
Standards.
a. C79 Scope—Firer is to achieve at least one 38 mm grouping in one of the four attempts.
b. Iron Sight—Firer is to achieve at least one 65 mm grouping in one of the four attempts.
Note there is no difference in standards for shorter barrel length, you want to use a carbine you need to be able to meet the same standard with it. For initial training the best 4 rounds out of 5 count, for continuation training its 5 out of 5. For initial training the firer can wear just combats but full fighting order with PPE (Eye pro, Ear pro, Gloves, Helmet, Armour, Fighting Order (TacVest)) is expected when the Personal Weapons Test is conducted (Train as you fight).
Same target for all other grouping practices.
Same procedure for sitting unsupported, kneeling unsupported, and standing unsupported.
Standards:
a. Sitting (C79 Scope)—56 mm;
b. Sitting (Iron Sight)—75 mm;
c. Kneeling (C79 Scope)—56 mm;
d. Kneeling (Iron Sight)—80 mm;
e. Standing (C79 Scope)—100 mm; and
f. Standing (Iron Sight)—140 mm.
If all previous standards are met, repeat this procedure at 100m with the figure 11 on a (4') witness screen.
Standards:
a. Prone (C79 Scope)—150 mm.
b. Prone (Iron Sight)—200 mm.
e. Kneeling (C79 Scope)—225 mm.
f. Kneeling (Iron Sight)—250 mm.
g. Sitting (C79 Scope)—200 mm.
h. Sitting (Iron Sight)—250 mm.
i. Standing (C79 Scope)—450 mm.
j. Standing (Iron Sight)—450 mm
For the Personal Weapons Test 1:
Grouping Size Prone
C79 Scope:
a. 200 mm—5 pts;
b. 250 mm—3 pts; and
c. over 250 mm—0 pts.
Iron Sight:
a. 250 mm—5 pts;
b. 300 mm—3 pts; and
c. over 300 mm—0 pts.
Kneeling:
Grouping Size
C79 Scope:
a. 225 mm—5 pts;
b. 275 mm—3 pts; and
c. over 275 mm—0 pts.
Iron Sight:
a. 250 mm—5 pts;
b. 300 mm—3 pts; and
c. over 300 mm—0 pts.
Standing:
Grouping Size C79 Scope or Iron Sight:
a. 450 mm—5 pts;
b. 500 mm—3 pts; and
c. over 500 mm—0 pts.
60% is a pass.
C7 pam is not the training standard for marksmanship. The Operational Shooting Programme, (AKA Shoot to Live in the past) is the standard. Very few units actually follow the proper programme properly to their detriment and skip straight to the test to save time.
For Initial training (recruits) CF standards for Prone (supported) shooting at 25 meters:
4x 5 round groups at Fig 11 with a 75 by 100 mm white aiming mark in the
centre.
Standards.
a. C79 Scope—Firer is to achieve at least one 38 mm grouping in one of the four attempts.
b. Iron Sight—Firer is to achieve at least one 65 mm grouping in one of the four attempts.
Note there is no difference in standards for shorter barrel length, you want to use a carbine you need to be able to meet the same standard with it. For initial training the best 4 rounds out of 5 count, for continuation training its 5 out of 5. For initial training the firer can wear just combats but full fighting order with PPE (Eye pro, Ear pro, Gloves, Helmet, Armour, Fighting Order (TacVest)) is expected when the Personal Weapons Test is conducted (Train as you fight).
Same target for all other grouping practices.
Same procedure for sitting unsupported, kneeling unsupported, and standing unsupported.
Standards:
a. Sitting (C79 Scope)—56 mm;
b. Sitting (Iron Sight)—75 mm;
c. Kneeling (C79 Scope)—56 mm;
d. Kneeling (Iron Sight)—80 mm;
e. Standing (C79 Scope)—100 mm; and
f. Standing (Iron Sight)—140 mm.
If all previous standards are met, repeat this procedure at 100m with the figure 11 on a (4') witness screen.
Standards:
a. Prone (C79 Scope)—150 mm.
b. Prone (Iron Sight)—200 mm.
e. Kneeling (C79 Scope)—225 mm.
f. Kneeling (Iron Sight)—250 mm.
g. Sitting (C79 Scope)—200 mm.
h. Sitting (Iron Sight)—250 mm.
i. Standing (C79 Scope)—450 mm.
j. Standing (Iron Sight)—450 mm
For the Personal Weapons Test 1:
Grouping Size Prone
C79 Scope:
a. 200 mm—5 pts;
b. 250 mm—3 pts; and
c. over 250 mm—0 pts.
Iron Sight:
a. 250 mm—5 pts;
b. 300 mm—3 pts; and
c. over 300 mm—0 pts.
Kneeling:
Grouping Size
C79 Scope:
a. 225 mm—5 pts;
b. 275 mm—3 pts; and
c. over 275 mm—0 pts.
Iron Sight:
a. 250 mm—5 pts;
b. 300 mm—3 pts; and
c. over 300 mm—0 pts.
Standing:
Grouping Size C79 Scope or Iron Sight:
a. 450 mm—5 pts;
b. 500 mm—3 pts; and
c. over 500 mm—0 pts.
60% is a pass.
You've gotta admit, 1/8 MOA at 200 yards is a pretty extreme claim from a 10" semi-auto. Lots of guys in the "Precision Rifles" section would be happy as a clam with those results.
You guys can pooh pooh it all you want - doesnt change it - It happened.
Actually I don't agree...lots of guys could do that. I used to shoot one hole groups, but I've moved on.
That's right, I do one better: I can now set a target at ANY range, and shoot BETTER than a one hole group.
What's better than a one-hole group? A group SO TIGHT IT MAKES NO HOLE AT ALL.
I can literally shoot a target as many times as I like, from any range, and not make even one hole in the paper, that's how accurate I am.
The only possible explanation is that I am shooting groups so small that they are less than one cellulose fiber across, and go through without even disturbing the paper target itself.
So now that I do zero-hole groups, I find a claim of 1/8 moa repeatable groups out of a 10" AR very easy to believe. That would be a real step down from where I'm at.
Yeah, sorry if you interpreted it that way. USP, your groups are pretty decent for irons from the standing position. If nothing they are at least honest... I'd encourage you to do lots of dry firing on a reduced target of your choice in the positions you want to practice on in addition to lots and lots of shooting!
Cheers!
Yeah, sorry if you interpreted it that way. USP, your groups are pretty decent for irons from the standing position. If nothing they are at least honest... I'd encourage you to do lots of dry firing on a reduced target of your choice in the positions you want to practice on in addition to lots and lots of shooting!
Cheers!
Thanks
other than dry firing any other tips for cleaning up the shooting abit? I just dont want to add an optic to the Swiss Rifle. I bought a BT rail but dont want to even put it on.I find the biggest problem is that I have trouble seeing the target at long range 100 yard plus. I am limited at the range I shoot at to range supplied red on white type targets.
Yep!
But it happened several times - with witnesses -
I was surprised also -
By the way - it was a Stag barrel - with 55 grainers -
I called the noof and told him - he said he had a lot of reports of tight 200 yd groups.
Whoever he had crown that batch of 10 inchers must of had an angel on his shoulder.
But it happened several times - with witnesses -
I was surprised also -
By the way - it was a Stag barrel - with 55 grainers -
I called the noof and told him - he said he had a lot of reports of tight 200 yd groups.
Whoever he had crown that batch of 10 inchers must of had an angel on his shoulder.
