grouping size for hunting based on skill

[saskgunowner101]

Don't cheat and shoot only 3 rounds as what seems to be quite common nowadays.

On a calm day with good lighting and a solid rest with full broadside target not moving

I get the impression that you're one of those "attached to a bench" guys, who thinks it translates directly to hunting. Can you provide a fact based link to where 3 shots sucks, but 10 shots is optimum? I'm under the impression that group size will get somewhat larger, but shouldn't the point of impact remain relatively the same? Also, the only thing 10 shots through a lightweight hunting barrel will do, is possibly make you wonder what's going on. Or can a guy shoot 3, cool off, 3, cool off, and then 4? Or maybe10 seperate cold bore shots?

Also, what part of Canada has this perfect hunting weather scenario, because I'd like to move there.

 

[Dogleg]

I remember Jack O’Connor writing that if you can keep almost all your shots on the 8” black bull on a small bore target at 100 yards shooting offhand with the misses real close, and put them all in there at 200 yards sitting you could start considering yourself a pretty fair shot; better than most. If you can’t do it, it probably isn’t because your gun is broken

 

[iron cat]

I remember Jack O’Connor writing that if you can keep almost all your shots on the 8” black bull on a small bore target at 100 yards shooting offhand with the misses real close, and put them all in there at 200 yards sitting you could start considering yourself a pretty fair shot; better than most. If you can’t do it, it probably isn’t because your gun is broken

I might add that if in fact you think your rifle is broken, give it to one of the better shooters in your club to try- the end result might be a bit embarrassing! :>)
Cat

 

[Beeron]

I have been hunting a long time and I generally tag out.
In 25 years or so, I have had maybe 7 or 10 deer run off on me before I was ready to take my shot.
In a couple of those instances, I could have done better. Mostly though, that’s how it goes. I enjoy the encounter and chalk it up. If im not in a position to take a precise shot before it flakes, so be it.

By far the majority of my deer, bears, etc. have come in circumstances where I was able to take a careful shot at a stationary deer or moose or bear with, at worst, an improvised rest.

So why shud I be happy with an 8” pie plate?

The multitudes of hunters who talk about limited time for a shot or take shots at running or even walking game must be hunting differently than I am.

 

[Gatehouse]

Pie plates be damned, if you can keep your shots on a standard 8.5”x11” piece of printer paper mounted 11” horizontally, you would be golden on any ungulate or bear in North America.

Try that offhand at 100 yds and let me know how ya do, I’ll wager a lot of hunters wouldn’t land 50% of their shots on the paper this way, let alone if they were a wee bit winded……….

Some gun writer in Field & Stream mentioned "pie plate" in an article circa 1963 and ever since that's the target that has been repeated. Even though a 8;5x11 paper stapled to plywood is 100x cheaper and 100X more available.

I don't think I've ever seen someone use a pie plate as a target, actually. Some cheap paper plates, sure. But no metal pie plates. If you are going to shoot metal invest in some AR500 targets.

 

[bearhunter]

Peepsig4t, KePet explained MOA very well. Others responding to your query explained what is "needed" in the field to produce a "clean" kill on a Deer.

That doesn't mean "bang/flop," but it will kill the animal quickly, even though it may run, stumble, or wobble for up to 100yds.

Writers are giving good advice about accuracy requirements, IMHO, when they state 1.5 moa.

What it really depends on is how capable YOU ARE of shooting that well or better.

I've known lots of folks over the years, with rifles incapable of better than 4moa with factory ammunition. They don't shoot more than 150 yds, simply because they don't know where that bullet is going to impact. That's "good ethics."

Is a 400 yd shot ethical with a 1.5 moa capable rifle???? MAYBE, if you also know how to judge such distances accurately, and know how much bullet drop there will be at that distance, and if you can dial your scope for it, or judge "hold over."

Once you know you can shoot 1.5 moa from a bench rested rifle, then it's time to practice off hand shooting.

You should be able to hold almost as tight a group offhand, say 2 moa for at least two shots. If you need the third shot, the animal is long gone.

Off the shelf rifles are getting better all the time. Some are still very inaccurate, and many folks just live with it.

Most will shoot several brands/weights of bullets very well. The thing is, commercially loaded ammunition is expensive, and it often changes in some manner from lot to lot.

Many newbies believe every rifle is capable of laser like accuracy, nothing could be further from reality.

 

[Dogleg]

Hitting sucess is a combination of the variables, in this case the shooter and the gun. Mostly the shooter..
A very accepted mathematic solution for predicting the effect of two or more variables is RSS or root sum squared.Thats the square root of the two variables squared added together.
Lets say you have a wobble area of 8” and magic rifle that shot .000” you’re still shooting 8” groups. A 1” rifle will open the group to 8.06 ish. A 2” rifle which nobody wants to admit having brings it up to 8.25”. That isn’t going to make the news, but lets say you have a rusty 30-30 or an SKS thats shoots 4”. That’ll expand the group all the way up to 8.9ish. The horror

Things start changing when you can shoot better than your gun does.

 

[tiriaq]

I wonder how many hunting rifle/sight/ammunition combinations are capable of consistent 1 1/2 minute performance?
With a rifle known to be capable of consistent 1 1/2 minute performance, how many hunters are capable of shooting consistent 1 1/2 minute groups?
This is why being able to consistently hit an 8 1/2 x 11 paper, paper plate, etc. at unknown distances shooting under field conditions is a meaningful measure of shooting competence for a hunter.

 

[senior70]

The multitudes of hunters who talk about limited time for a shot or take shots at running or even walking game must be hunting differently than I am.

And probably are!
10 of thousands in eastern Canada & US hunt with dogs or humans as chasers where there's no open areas to sit & watch for a deer to walk into range. In 50 yrs I have shot as many walking or running deer as I have from a stand. A good portion of hunt camps are after meat not trophys, Not every one hunts the same & I don't think it's fair to downplay what or how someone else hunts as long as it's legal.

 

[Runningfool]

Some gun writer in Field & Stream mentioned "pie plate" in an article circa 1963 and ever since that's the target that has been repeated. Even though a 8;5x11 paper stapled to plywood is 100x cheaper and 100X more available.

I don't think I've ever seen someone use a pie plate as a target, actually. Some cheap paper plates, sure. But no metal pie plates. If you are going to shoot metal invest in some AR500 targets.

I always assumed that as far as targets go, a pie plate was referring more to the size of the plate than the material. For example, a dinner plate is roughly 8" in diameter while a pie plate is roughly 6" in diameter. Like you, I've never seen anyone use a tin or aluminum pie plate as a target but Dollar store paper pie plates are common.

 

[iron cat]

By far the majority of my deer, bears, etc. have come in circumstances where I was able to take a careful shot at a stationary deer or moose or bear with, at worst, an improvised rest.

So why shud I be happy with an 8” pie plate?

The multitudes of hunters who talk about limited time for a shot or take shots at running or even walking game must be hunting differently than I am.

8" pie plate accuracy is what is commonly referenced for several reasons, the biggest being that is about the kill area for a deer.
Animals don't have targets on their sides, and one must figure out how to place a shot where the heart/lungs are going to be hit.
Head, neck, and other shots aside, the heart/lung area is the biggest.
It seems these days the vast majority of hunters are obsessed with pinpoint accuracy of their rifles, which is fine, but unless a person is capable of shooting to the same level as their equipment is capable, it's pretty much a moot point.
One of the members here a while back mentioned that there are a lot more 1/2 minute guns out there than 1/2 minute shooters, and he was very correct.
I have been a match shooter for over 50 years , and hunting big game for almost as long as I have been shooting , but the difference between shooting a high score on a target and killing an animal with no scoring rings on it, with a hunting rifle , in the bush, often with multiple obsticles in the way , and possibly out of breath from a big climb up a slope or slogging through a swamp are two different things .
What match shooting has tought me however is that I am the biggest variable in any situation.
Cat

 

[DGY]

There is no such a thing as perfect broadside, perfect light, no wind/breeze, perfect angle, perfect distances, perfect shot in real life hunting period. That is why we evaluate the situation before we pull the trigger. You might be a good shot in “fields positions” at the range and hitting paper pie plates at 300m but in real life you need to evaluate the situation before you shoot, you need to know what you are using and it’s capabilities/ballistics before you take a shot on a live animal!!

Yesterday I was out with some friend looking for bison at the end of the turned around point we were on a berm at the edge of a lake we got talking about guns ammo and distances. So i pointed out a spot across the narrow part of the lake and asked how far it was, answers were all 100m short of the measured distance!
The other hunter, didn’t know what bullet he was using, but he knew that the rifle he borrowed for the day was a 300 win mag. He knew that his own rifle wasn’t legal for bison being a 303 British( when I asked him he said I have a 301…) he also know that he keeps his shots inside 100m, he is a caribou hunter, that is the only thing he ever shot and he shot lots of them. But doesn’t have a clue what he is using probably doesn’t know what bullet he is using in that rifle either but he know he can kill caribou at 100 yards with it!
So chances are that he probably didn’t shoot that 300 win mag cause ammo is expensive and he is cheap, so he doesn’t know where it shoots with him behind the trigger lol!!

All that to say it is easy to assume things, it easy to say I got a X rifle in X chambering that shoots X inches at a 100… and saying I can shoot X group at 300 if you never even dites that gun!!

We are gun nuts here or we wouldn’t be here so these thing are common sense to us, but we are not the majority roaming the woods looking for games!!

For years I was keeping my shots on game inside 159m then I started reloading and shooting more and more and more and now I feel comfortable if the all is the way I feel comfortable with to take a shot at a moose or bison or caribou to 250-300m. I have a range finder and use it lots, I know what my bullets can do and what are there limitations, I know my limitation, and know what to do to make a shot at those distances in the field.

Wow that must be my longest post and I think I got lost hahaha…

Go shoot have fun and make it count!

 

[jparent]

Most of what was said above is accurate. However, from real field experience a stationary target from any field position is only 1/2 the battle. Lining up a 300 yard shot, on a stationary animal, is relatively easy from any field rest, practice and confidence here is important.. What happens when a buck lumbers out 20 yards or less from you? You need to be well practiced at all ranges and be able to perform the mental calculations and shot adaptation on the fly. Range estimation cannot be understated. Where i hunt, the same field position can bring a shot at 300 yards standing, to 10 yards or less running. Being prepared and able to adapt instantly to whatever the animals throw at you is equally important. Ive seen people miss at incredibly close distances because they never practiced for those scenarios, mentally or physically, so they were not prepared. Two seasons ago, i shot a buck at 6 feet. Yes feet. That is a whole different experience than distance shooting.

 

[DGY]

8" pie plate accuracy is what is commonly referenced for several reasons, the biggest being that is about the kill area for a deer.
Animals don't have targets on their sides, and one must figure out how to place a shot where the heart/lungs are going to be hit.
Head, neck, and other shots aside, the heart/lung area is the biggest.
It seems these days the vast majority of hunters are obsessed with pinpoint accuracy of their rifles, which is fine, but unless a person is capable of shooting to the same level as their equipment is capable, it's pretty much a moot point.
One of the members here a while back mentioned that there are a lot more 1/2 minute guns out there than 1/2 minute shooters, and he was very correct.
I have been a match shooter for over 50 years , and hunting big game for almost as long as I have been shooting , but the difference between shooting a high score on a target and killing an animal with no scoring rings on it, with a hunting rifle , in the bush, often with multiple obsticles in the way , and possibly out of breath from a big climb up a slope or slogging through a swamp are two different things .
What match shooting has tought me however is that I am the biggest variable in any situation.
Cat

100 million percent with you on all of that( I usually agree with what you have to say anyway).
Knowing the anatomy of the query is as important as how accurate you can place the bullets in said query! The vital of a bison isn’t quite the same as a moose and a moose not quite the same as a bear… so if you already shoot at the same place for all games you might end up with some surprises. Unless you only hunt one type of game then you are golden.. kind of!

 

[Beeron]

And probably are!
10 of thousands in eastern Canada & US hunt with dogs or humans as chasers where there's no open areas to sit & watch for a deer to walk into range. In 50 yrs I have shot as many walking or running deer as I have from a stand. A good portion of hunt camps are after meat not trophys, Not every one hunts the same & I don't think it's fair to downplay what or how someone else hunts as long as it's legal.

Two things here
1. Im not belittling necessarily. I just don’t understand it. And legitimately, they must be doing things differently to not just me but anyone i know or have wver hunted with. Modern firearms, even the ones I started with, are incredibly precise instruments. To me it just feels like a pie plate is a target for a musket. And yes, I have done that.
2. Legal is not my minimum standard. There are plenty of legal activities that are morally reprehensible. The opportunity to change laws is pretty important. Even if it is hurting us as a community in the current moment.

8" pie plate accuracy is what is commonly referenced for several reasons, the biggest being that is about the kill area for a deer.
Animals don't have targets on their sides, and one must figure out how to place a shot where the heart/lungs are going to be hit.
Head, neck, and other shots aside, the heart/lung area is the biggest.
It seems these days the vast majority of hunters are obsessed with pinpoint accuracy of their rifles, which is fine, but unless a person is capable of shooting to the same level as their equipment is capable, it's pretty much a moot point.
One of the members here a while back mentioned that there are a lot more 1/2 minute guns out there than 1/2 minute shooters, and he was very correct.
I have been a match shooter for over 50 years , and hunting big game for almost as long as I have been shooting , but the difference between shooting a high score on a target and killing an animal with no scoring rings on it, with a hunting rifle , in the bush, often with multiple obsticles in the way , and possibly out of breath from a big climb up a slope or slogging through a swamp are two different things .
What match shooting has tought me however is that I am the biggest variable in any situation.
Cat

Of course,
All of that.
In everything, I am the biggest variable by far and that's intentional.
I am obsessive (Not necessarily in a healthy way lol) about practice and I practice with all of my rifles at all kinds or ranges and create and practice real world scenarios for myself and my wife and kid. I do that with rifles and loads I have verified to be MOA or better. if they aren't, they are plinkers, not hunters.

This is why the pie plate idea baffles me though.
While I understand the 8" pie plate represents the average size of vitals on game animals, that is really only meaningful if you hit the middle of the pie plate, or perhaps more accurately if your pie plate is positioned on the target animal exactly centered over the vitals.

If the aim point is 4" high, then your bullet could go as much as 12" high.
If my aim point is 4" high, I might hit the animal as much as 5" above where I'm aiming.
This is why we say "Aim small, miss small" isn't it.

I think there is far more wound loss in hunting than anyone likes to admit and many "Pie plate" shooters assume they missed when an animal runs off wounded.

Yes, field conditions are rarely perfect but that's why we sometimes let the animal walk, right?
At least I do and so do the folks I hunt with.

 

[iron cat]

This is why the pie plate idea baffles me though.
While I understand the 8" pie plate represents the average size of vitals on game animals, that is really only meaningful if you hit the middle of the pie plate, or perhaps more accurately if your pie plate is positioned on the target animal exactly centered over the vitals.

I do not know what is befuddling about it.
Anywhere inside an 8" area is the lung area, be it at 100 or 500 meters.
The vast majority of the 35+ animals I have shot with one rifle have been inside 150 yards, but have shot one past 370 yards.
I don't shoot groups with that rifle - I have match rifles for that . I only shoot one or two shots at each range session at different distance with my hunting rifle once I have the loads worked up , but I am totally confident that if I look at an animal and decide to shoot it, I can kill it within my ability parameters.

 

[Beeron]

I do not know what is befuddling about it.
Anywhere inside an 8" area is the lung area, be it at 100 or 500 meters.
The vast majority of the 35+ animals I have shot with one rifle have been inside 150 yards, but have shot one past 370 yards.
I don't shoot groups with that rifle - I have match rifles for that . I only shoot one or two shots at each range session at different distance with my hunting rifle once I have the loads worked up , but I am totally confident that if I look at an animal and decide to shoot it, I can kill it within my ability parameters.

Yep. Thats you. Many aren’t that skilled.
I see dudes all the time show up at the range. Hit a paper plate 3 out 5 shots and as long as the last one was on the plate, head off to hunt.

I explained why its befuddling.
Its like turning a precision instrument into an artillery weapon.

If we aim small, we miss small. Its as simple as that.

Anyway. Not trying to stir up anything.
To each their own.

 

[Lefty Dick]

https://www.basspro.ca/p/pursuit-10-steel-gong-target-kit

For 200 yards and beyond this is $130 well spent, instant feedback too boot.


Get off the bench, use field positions, use bipods, sticks, back packs, wobbly trees, and when you fail to get 75% hits call that your maximum effective shooting distance for hunting using what ever pose you used.

 

[iron cat]

Yep. Thats you. Many aren’t that skilled.
I see dudes all the time show up at the range. Hit a paper plate 3 out 5 shots and as long as the last one was on the plate, head off to hunt.

I explained why its befuddling.
Its like turning a precision instrument into an artillery weapon.

If we aim small, we miss small. Its as simple as that.

Anyway. Not trying to stir up anything.
To each their own.

The key is not to aim at the whole plate but the center of it.
It has nothing to do with turning a precision instrument into an artillery weapon.
knowing how to aim and shoot is only part of it.
Cat

 

[Suther]

I might add that if in fact you think your rifle is broken, give it to one of the better shooters in your club to try- the end result might be a bit embarrassing! :>)
Cat

Hahaha this reminds me of the time I took an acquaintance to the range to sight in his 300win mag. He went through most of a box of ammo chasing his zero across the target,, finally asked me to give it a try. Two shots 1" apart, a few inches high from POA. Seems OK to me...