Guerrilla Sniper Rifles - interesting concept/niche/philosophy
- Thread starter Fenix.NZ
- Start date
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Snowy - of course the term is politically incorrect, i found it on a US forum.. and as i said its mainly been toted towards SHTF applications..
while i dont see eye to eye on their apocalypse survival fantasies, i do like the idea of it as a shooting discipline
while i dont see eye to eye on their apocalypse survival fantasies, i do like the idea of it as a shooting discipline
Perhaps it's politically incorrect, but I don't see that the term 'sniper' is automatically a military designation. Likewise, without being too farfetched, I can imagine a need for a lowly civilian to be equipped for defensive action against a group of armed attackers. IIRC, one of Jeff Cooper's ideas behind his scout rifle concept was a need, while hunting in Africa, for a combat-ready rifle in case one should encounter a group of enemy guerrilla or AK-armed poachers.
Fenix.NZ: An interesting read and some good responses in the thread.
FWIW I've been using this methodology to enjoy shooting for the past two years now by putting up man sized targets at varying ranges out to ~800m and then using a combination of iron sights and optics (recently) to try and make torso/ head shots from different shooting positions (some standard, some creative) and at different rates of fire (varying between controlled precision shots and rapid fire) and with different rifles. I used to use a range finder till I got comfortable with estimating distances and now am experimenting with inclines and how they affect target identification, estimation and engagement.
The only limitation is having a patch of land large enough for distance shots and varied enough to allow your creativity to roam free! It's an absolute hoot to shoot this way and it also places more emphasis on the "shooter" as most of the variables are uncontrolled and hence, changing.
Ofcourse, most of this is quasi-scientific in it's application but this sort of practical accuracy is what makes, IMHO, shooting a fun past time! It's fun to challenge yourself!
Now for a little dose of reality.
I would think a hunting rifle will do just fine for self defense and the like (I'm sure there are some folks just drooling over the multiple scenario possibilities while fondling their war hammers) but for battle, I think they would be woefully ineffective.
This brings me to my point - reality. All this SHTF stuff is nonsense, fantasy and garbage. Don't even get me started with the whole zombie thing. I would wager that the vast majority of the people participating the these SHTF forums have no clue or experience as to what really happens when the SHTF in a real battle. Call of Duty does not apply.
Any of you ever speak to and listen to a vet, someone whom has been there and seen real action, including killing, inflicting horrific wounds to another human being? Read any of their biographies? Consider this, they were trained to perform those tasks and they had a hard time and were frightened out of their minds. One common theme, every single one of them would not choose to be there, ever if they had a choice the second time around because living was too precious to them.
There will never be a disintegration of government such that a "Mad Max" world becomes any kind of reality. Even if it did happen, I wager most of the untrained civilian "Soldiers of Fortune wannabes" would be wetting themselves the first time real bullets were whizzing over their heads or worst yet, inflicting horrible, irreversible wounds to the friend next to you. No, the real soldiers will be fighting to protect and defend our liberties.
History has a blatantly truthful way of showing to us that those untrained and unskilled in the art of war are usually and sadly, the first to be killed or sacrificed, in some cases by the hundreds.
It's fun to fantasize, but we need to keep our grip on reality too.
I would think a hunting rifle will do just fine for self defense and the like (I'm sure there are some folks just drooling over the multiple scenario possibilities while fondling their war hammers) but for battle, I think they would be woefully ineffective.
This brings me to my point - reality. All this SHTF stuff is nonsense, fantasy and garbage. Don't even get me started with the whole zombie thing. I would wager that the vast majority of the people participating the these SHTF forums have no clue or experience as to what really happens when the SHTF in a real battle. Call of Duty does not apply.
Any of you ever speak to and listen to a vet, someone whom has been there and seen real action, including killing, inflicting horrific wounds to another human being? Read any of their biographies? Consider this, they were trained to perform those tasks and they had a hard time and were frightened out of their minds. One common theme, every single one of them would not choose to be there, ever if they had a choice the second time around because living was too precious to them.
There will never be a disintegration of government such that a "Mad Max" world becomes any kind of reality. Even if it did happen, I wager most of the untrained civilian "Soldiers of Fortune wannabes" would be wetting themselves the first time real bullets were whizzing over their heads or worst yet, inflicting horrible, irreversible wounds to the friend next to you. No, the real soldiers will be fighting to protect and defend our liberties.
History has a blatantly truthful way of showing to us that those untrained and unskilled in the art of war are usually and sadly, the first to be killed or sacrificed, in some cases by the hundreds.
It's fun to fantasize, but we need to keep our grip on reality too.
Brutus
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Interesting concept. First off I want to say I'm not a 'sniper' want-to-be nor do I wish to become one.
Any kind of target shooting is loads of fun, with the fun factor being directly tied to the long, longer & longest ranges IMO. Some tools are better than others of course, with the greatest variable being the trigger actuator carbon form.
Any kind of target shooting is loads of fun, with the fun factor being directly tied to the long, longer & longest ranges IMO. Some tools are better than others of course, with the greatest variable being the trigger actuator carbon form.
- Location
- Burlington On
Thank you sobo4303 for the dose of sanity I've been wanting to post.
i'll 2nd that..
i dont get into the SHTF lone gunman or civillian militia, handling business against the invading Reds fantasy ..
but the GSR shooting skill set ( how about we calling it Practical Field Shooting from now on huh? ) .. is an incredibly fun and personally rewarding way to shoot.. and honestly, printing groups on paper from a bench doesnt really give me chub.. much prefer getting into the field ..
of course its not going to be for everyone .. some guys lose their #### over posting groups on paper, and more power to them.. they love the way they shoot.
so i know its not for everyone, but its definately for me
[youtube]Z0GFRcFm-aY[/youtube]
yup, and we're talking about the practical/field application of your service skills.. you can do it on a nice flat range .. where you know the distance..
can you do it off the side of a hill down into a gully using a rock or fallen tree as a rest ?
can you do it off the side of a hill down into a gully using a rock or fallen tree as a rest ?
beavis_m305
Regular
- Location
- New Zealand
May as well chime in since I got mentioned in the first post
I liked the idea that me and Fenix were discussing the other day. I think that a "GSR" would be a handy and versatile rig for both hunting and practical type shooting. I agree with the notion that you do not need a sub moa tack driver to hit anything. My Sako .270 shoots horrible with the ammo I'm currently feeding it - up to 3MOA (horrible for this rifle), and yet I still managed to knock a Sika over at 200m in the last ours of daylight, sitting down with my knees as the only support. I also found that when I was doing a lot of rabbit shooting in the summer of 2010, my marksmanship approached freakish levels, simply because I shot many rounds at many animals from every imaginable shooting position. It got to the point where I was able to despatch anything within a 120m radius of me from almost any shooting position (was using a .22LR). I also learned from this experience how perishable rifle marksmanship can be if you don't keep at it - I'm no where near as good today. My current little run'n gun area is gold for practicing "practical" shooting, and where we can put this "theory" to practice. Here's me ventilating a 5 KG LPG bottle at around 280m
As for the SHTF, TEOTWAWKI stuff, While I agree some people have a disturbing obsession with it, I don't think it's silly having some form of defensive armament if that kind of situation ever comes to fruition. At the same time I also think it's a bit of a stretch to call it self defense if your engaging people at some of the mentioned distances... Calling me a prepper would be stretching the truth a loooong way, I don't even have enough 5.56 on hand to test out my new optic, let alone food to last more than a week
I liked the idea that me and Fenix were discussing the other day. I think that a "GSR" would be a handy and versatile rig for both hunting and practical type shooting. I agree with the notion that you do not need a sub moa tack driver to hit anything. My Sako .270 shoots horrible with the ammo I'm currently feeding it - up to 3MOA (horrible for this rifle), and yet I still managed to knock a Sika over at 200m in the last ours of daylight, sitting down with my knees as the only support. I also found that when I was doing a lot of rabbit shooting in the summer of 2010, my marksmanship approached freakish levels, simply because I shot many rounds at many animals from every imaginable shooting position. It got to the point where I was able to despatch anything within a 120m radius of me from almost any shooting position (was using a .22LR). I also learned from this experience how perishable rifle marksmanship can be if you don't keep at it - I'm no where near as good today. My current little run'n gun area is gold for practicing "practical" shooting, and where we can put this "theory" to practice. Here's me ventilating a 5 KG LPG bottle at around 280m
As for the SHTF, TEOTWAWKI stuff, While I agree some people have a disturbing obsession with it, I don't think it's silly having some form of defensive armament if that kind of situation ever comes to fruition. At the same time I also think it's a bit of a stretch to call it self defense if your engaging people at some of the mentioned distances... Calling me a prepper would be stretching the truth a loooong way, I don't even have enough 5.56 on hand to test out my new optic, let alone food to last more than a week
Field Shooting
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The Swedes regularly have "Field Shooting" courses out to 600 meters, using open sighted rifles. In the last century, it was the Swedish Mauser m/96 rifle in 6.5x55 Calibre.
Various types of targets are set out at unknown distances to the shooters.
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The Swedes regularly have "Field Shooting" courses out to 600 meters, using open sighted rifles. In the last century, it was the Swedish Mauser m/96 rifle in 6.5x55 Calibre.
Various types of targets are set out at unknown distances to the shooters.
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Can I say anymore? I got my ar15 with 16 inch barrel on order.
My next buy is a ruger gunsite left hand model if they ever make it here.
good add on for quick shots.
Eliminator 3 coming this summer!
Another Option. As much I hate the Norc or Polytech, Id like to get my hands on a Springfield which gets really good reviews for awesome accuracy out the box. I couldn't hit jack with my norc out the box.
My other option. AWESOME, AWESOME and VERY AWESOME. Only issue, hard to get accessories, but if your looking for a GSR, this would be more then you need. Maybe a bipod and nice scope. VERY ACCURATE. I had 0 issues hitting with the ghost rings, and has no recoil.
My next buy is a ruger gunsite left hand model if they ever make it here.
good add on for quick shots.
Eliminator 3 coming this summer!
Another Option. As much I hate the Norc or Polytech, Id like to get my hands on a Springfield which gets really good reviews for awesome accuracy out the box. I couldn't hit jack with my norc out the box.
My other option. AWESOME, AWESOME and VERY AWESOME. Only issue, hard to get accessories, but if your looking for a GSR, this would be more then you need. Maybe a bipod and nice scope. VERY ACCURATE. I had 0 issues hitting with the ghost rings, and has no recoil.
TV-PressPass
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Mountains, Alberta
I love to hear the new zealander side of things. For sure.
Simo Hayha was just a "civilian", plain farmer and hunter until Reds Soviet decided to invade his home.
The truth is when SHTF most people don't know what to do because they were never exposed to such conditions/situations and become the first victims. However the ones die off are the ones that have the lowest adaptability and flexibility to survive in the new environments. A good example is the 2nd Polish Corps by General Andres in World War II. They were majority displaced civilians during the war and shipped off to Soviet/Siberia; when the Russians released them from concentration camps, General Andres trained and formed one the largest exiled Polish Army that was an envy in their fighting spirit to recapture Poland. Sadly they never made it home and were displaced into foreign lands.
My Father spoke with those veterans of 2nd Polish Corps that fought in Monte Casino 1944 battle and I met an elderly couple (10 years ago) who survived the Siberian Concentration camp.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/II_Corps_(Poland)
The truth lies within the human spirit; if its strong enough to fight and die for what is right and lost, then there are no boundaries of professionalism against determination. Even the German paratroopers division had to strategically retreat from ongoing onslaught. Canadian 1st Armoured Brigade veterans knows when they fought alongside 2nd Polish Corps.
Poltrojan,
Thank you for that incredible example. My wife's grandfather fought as a Yugoslavian partisan in WWII. He would regale us with stories of individual courage and with the same breath, talk to us about how the untrained or weaker souls were lost. His was a brutal reality in those times.
The fact of the matter is that even our northern Rangers receive training to prepare them for battle. I get frustrated with all the "Soldier of Fortune" wannabe's whom buy a cool rifle and then become enamoured with the thought of a SHTF or zombie fantasy.
Many real soldiers whom fought in some of the bloodiest battles in history spend the rest of their lives struggling within themselves to repress and try to forget those moments of their past. Then I read the comments by some of the comic book or Call of Duty warriors and have to laugh, until it seemingly becomes an obsession.
Then I begin to worry if I will ever be reading about them in the newspapers or ever be faced having to defend myself against them.
Thank you for that incredible example. My wife's grandfather fought as a Yugoslavian partisan in WWII. He would regale us with stories of individual courage and with the same breath, talk to us about how the untrained or weaker souls were lost. His was a brutal reality in those times.
The fact of the matter is that even our northern Rangers receive training to prepare them for battle. I get frustrated with all the "Soldier of Fortune" wannabe's whom buy a cool rifle and then become enamoured with the thought of a SHTF or zombie fantasy.
Many real soldiers whom fought in some of the bloodiest battles in history spend the rest of their lives struggling within themselves to repress and try to forget those moments of their past. Then I read the comments by some of the comic book or Call of Duty warriors and have to laugh, until it seemingly becomes an obsession.
Then I begin to worry if I will ever be reading about them in the newspapers or ever be faced having to defend myself against them.
Fenix,
Sure, you may call it anything you want and "Practical Field Shooting" is quite appropriate but that would apply only to your shooting discipline. I have also read about the "Guerrilla Sniper Rifle" courses that Mr Gabe Suarez offers to all three casts of society, namely policemen, military and low life "civilians", exactly in that pecking order. (I don't want your thread to be locked up so I am trying very hard to be as politically correct as possible).
Now, the courses offered by Mr Suarez are quite short in duration (two or three days) and they are not - by his own admission - true "sniper" training but on the other hand, they are not what might be called Practical Rifle Shooting neither. Mr Suarez lives in the U.S. and we both live outside the U.S. - in New Zealand and Canada, respectively. He writes that most of his clients are civilians (apparently, no need for quotation marks in his country).
The closest thing that I know of to Practical Rifle Shooting is what was taught by the late Colonel Jeff Cooper at his American Pistol Institute (Gunsite) in Paulden, Arizona. Colonel Cooper was putting much more emphasis on snap shots, time constraints, different shooting positions and the use of the sling as a shooting aid and less emphasis on firing beyond three hundred yards although there was also some firing at longer range - and some clay pigeon (going straight away) shooting too with the rifle. Yeah, I know, the last part of my sentence would put any and all policemen in Canada on the lookout but Arizona is not Canada. Like Colonel Cooper once wrote, it's another country - they do things differently there ...
Anyway, all in all, I still maintain that here on CGN, you DO NOT use the expression "sniper rifle" if you are only a low life low grade "civilian". You want to be politically correct and you use the expression "precision rifle" - just like Mr Suarez wrote himself. That way, you do not invite blows to head and body - figuratively speaking, of course. No incitement to violence, please !
That being said, I can tell you that I have seen some formidable Practical Rifle Shooting from low life low grade "civilians" but they were not and are not "snipers" nor "guerilla snipers" - if that can be of any comfort to our non elected authorities.
And yes, Practical Rifle Shooting "is an incredibly fun and personally rewarding way to shoot." I agree wholeheartedly with you !
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