Gun hunting without PAL

frumpy

frumpy

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I just did my hunting course this weekend and there were several things taught about firearms that were outright stupid/wrong.

My question is, if I go hunting with a hunting license, PAL, and gun can another individual with a hunting license but no PAL come along with me and hunt with my gun (only one gun brought between the two people)?

I'm pretty sure I know the answer but can't find a clear reference.
 
As long as they are under your direct supervision, yes.

No different than going to the range with someone who does not have a PAL.
 
In Ontario I believe the law states something along the lines of, having to be licenced to participate in a hunt in any way. Like most game laws in Ontario there is a lot of gray area here. By the book it would be against the law to take your kid with you, but I have never seen this part being enforced. Yes I know it sounds like a stupid law and is, but your dealing with the Ontario MNR, not logical people.

http://www.mnr.gov.on.ca/stdprodconsume/groups/lr/@mnr/@fw/documents/document/239844.pdf
 
frumpy said:
I just did my hunting course this weekend and there were several things taught about firearms that were outright stupid/wrong.

My question is, if I go hunting with a hunting license, PAL, and gun can another individual with a hunting license but no PAL come along with me and hunt with my gun (only one gun brought between the two people)?

I'm pretty sure I know the answer but can't find a clear reference.
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Yes he or she can. But as stated they have to be and remain under your DIRECT supervision the entire time.
 
if they have a pol they can borrow and do what they want. but with no pal or pol they must be under direct supervision.

Direct supervision means direct... you should be within arms length where you can take control of the firearm at any time as you would at a range...
 
guntech said:
if they have a pol they can borrow and do what they want. but with no pal or pol they must be under direct supervision.

Direct supervision means direct... you should be within arms length where you can take control of the firearm at any time as you would at a range...
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And that is really the problem. Unless you are blind hunting, you really are opening the door to a charge. Largely because this isn't cut and dry and the definition of direct supervision is pretty vague.
 
Ok, here is what the instructor said. The only time a person without a PAL can shoot a non-restricted is on a licensed range. (confirmed by his RCMP friend)

We were also taught that it is 100% illegal to target shoot on crown land, only shooting at what you are hunting is allowed. (also confirmed by his RCMP friend)


Also, semi auto shotguns do not have magazine limits (only semi auto rifles)

f:P:
 
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Ontario will not issue an H1 (Gun hunting) license to someone without a PAL/POL. They will be issued an H2 (Archery).

Should said person have an expired PAL, and has an H1 license, then your proposed solution is 100% correct...1 gun, constant supervision. Completely within the law.
 
frumpy said:
Ok, here is what the instructor said. The only time a person without a PAL can shoot a non-restricted is on a licensed range. (confirmed by his RCMP friend)

We were also taught that it is 100% illegal to target shoot on crown land, only shooting at what you are hunting is allowed. (also confirmed by his RCMP friend)


Also, semi auto shotguns do not have magazine limits (only semi auto rifles)

f:p:
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Maybe your RCMP friend should check the laws.
No law against non-PAL owners to shoot some trap in the back yard or plinking with a .22 as long as they are supervised and local bi-laws permit.

It is legal to target shoot on crown land as long as there isn't a municiple by-law stating otherwise and you are doing so in a safe manner. I should note that doing this during hunting season might be considered hunting, until you can prove otherwise in court.

Shotgun magazines only have a limit when used for hunting, then they must have the magazine plugged so they do not hold more than 3 rounds in the magazine and chamber combined.
 
maynard said:
Maybe your RCMP friend should check the laws.
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Reading fail? HIS RCMP friend

maynard said:
Shotgun magazines only have a limit when used for hunting, then they must have the magazine plugged so they do not hold more than 3 rounds in the magazine and chamber combined.
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Wrong again. Shotguns are 3 shells total (1 in the chamber, mag plugged to hold not more than 2 shells).

Semi auto shotguns are considered "long guns" which, aside from .22 are limited to a 5 round magazine (non-hunting)

firearms manual said:
centre-fire semi-automatic rifles and shotguns including "grandfathered" full-automatics and converted full-automatics - 5-shot magazines.
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Wow!
What a lot of interpretting (guessing?) to be done. I can see three different law enforcement officers iterpretting the laws three different ways.
Long before C68, or even the requirement of an FAC, I took my juvenile son bird hunting. He carried his own 20 gauge and was supposed to be in direct control.
I asked the local game warden (yes, that is what they were called) what was meant by direct control. We were hunting pheasants on small field farm land and he said i could go down one side of the field and the young son could go down the other side, like 100 or 200 yards apart. He said as long as you can see him!
The one most confused was our springer spaniel. He would hunt for me for a while, then gallop across the field to hunt with his friend, the young son!
 
frumpy said:
Reading fail? HIS RCMP friend



Wrong again. Shotguns are 3 shells total (1 in the chamber, mag plugged to hold not more than 2 shells).

Semi auto shotguns are considered "long guns" which, aside from .22 are limited to a 5 round magazine (non-hunting)
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3 rounds combined in the magazine and chamber while hunting is what I stated. This is fact for all shotguns pump or semi when used for hunting either deer during the controlled hunt in Ontario or Migritory birds across Canada. I know this because my 870 was checked by the MRN during the controlled deer hunt. And I have been checked more times than I care to remember while duck hunting. These are game laws and have nothing to do with how many rounds you can put into your shotgun at the range or gravel pit.
 
This is how I understand it:

You do not need a PAL to get your H1. If I understand correctly, you must pass the CFSC and present your certificate in order to obtain your H1. To hunt with a gun if you do not hold a license to possess, the license holder must be there directly supervising your use of the gun.

So if you have a PAL and your H1, you can hunt with your gun or a friend's gun, alone or with the friend.

If you do not hold a PAL, you still need your H1, which you need a CFSC certificate to obtain, you can hunt with a gun as long as a PAL/POL holder is there directly supervising your use of the firearm.

The only thing you can do without your CFSC is shoot at a range or target shoot on crown land under the supervision of a license holder. Or you can get your H2 and hunt with a bow.

Hunting with a firearm requires an H1. CFSC is a requisite. End of story.

There may be an exception for apprentice and youth hunting...not familiar with the regs there since I don't have any kids yet and my father wasn't a hunter.

Also, all centre-fire semi-auto rifles are 5+1 max. This includes semi-auto shotguns. All centre-fire rifles with manually operated actions have no capacity limits. All rimfire rifles have no capacity limits. All semi-auto pistols, rimfire or centre-fire, have a 10+1 limit.

Some exceptions apply such as firearms specifically exempted, and some magazines are interchangeable between firearms. The magazines are pinned/classified according to the firearms they were designed/advertised for. For example, the M1 Garand is semi-auto centre fire but has an exemption for its 8 rounds, and the LAR-15 pistol magazine fits into anything with a STANAG magwell, allowing you to have 10+1 rounds in a gun that otherwise would be limited to 5+1.

Shotguns must be plugged to 2+1 while hunting in Ontario..not sure about other provinces.

That should cover it.

Oh, always consult the laws and regulations, not a police officer.
 
Jäger said:
This is how I understand it:

You do not need a PAL to get your H1. If I understand correctly, you must pass the CFSC and present your certificate in order to obtain your H1. To hunt with a gun if you do not hold a license to possess, the license holder must be there directly supervising your use of the gun.

So if you have a PAL and your H1, you can hunt with your gun or a friend's gun, alone or with the friend.

If you do not hold a PAL, you still need your H1, which you need a CFSC certificate to obtain, you can hunt with a gun as long as a PAL/POL holder is there directly supervising your use of the firearm.

The only thing you can do without your CFSC is shoot at a range or target shoot on crown land under the supervision of a license holder. Or you can get your H2 and hunt with a bow.

Hunting with a firearm requires an H1. CFSC is a requisite. End of story.

There may be an exception for apprentice and youth hunting...not familiar with the regs there since I don't have any kids yet and my father wasn't a hunter.
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Thank you for clarifying, that makes sense.

Jäger said:
Also, all centre-fire semi-auto rifles are 5+1 max. This includes semi-auto shotguns. All centre-fire rifles with manually operated actions have no capacity limits. All rimfire rifles have no capacity limits. All semi-auto pistols, rimfire or centre-fire, have a 10+1 limit.

Some exceptions apply such as firearms specifically exempted, and some magazines are interchangeable between firearms. The magazines are pinned/classified according to the firearms they were designed/advertised for. For example, the M1 Garand is semi-auto centre fire but has an exemption for its 8 rounds, and the LAR-15 pistol magazine fits into anything with a STANAG magwell, allowing you to have 10+1 rounds in a gun that otherwise would be limited to 5+1.

Shotguns must be plugged to 2+1 while hunting in Ontario..not sure about other provinces.

That should cover it.

Oh, always consult the laws and regulations, not a police officer.
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That's what I thought but was told I am wrong.

The course was OK overall but I don't think it was worth the $120 with the manual. I could have probably squeeked by the test without doing the course or studying (or passed quite well with reading the manual). There were a few things I was looking forward to getting an answer to or discussing and it didn't happen (such as calibre for deer... don't want to start that argument here but was told "any centre fire is fine" and beyond that it's personal ethics)
 
frumpy said:
Thank you for clarifying, that makes sense.
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No problem!

frumpy said:
The course was OK overall but I don't think it was worth the $120 with the manual.
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Are we talking about just the CFSC or the hunting course too? $120 would be pretty cheap for the one-stop combo course. The hunting course is a requisite for both the H1 and H2 unless you can provide proof that you've hunted before.
 
frumpy said:
I just did my hunting course this weekend and there were several things taught about firearms that were outright stupid/wrong.

My question is, if I go hunting with a hunting license, PAL, and gun can another individual with a hunting license but no PAL come along with me and hunt with my gun (only one gun brought between the two people)?

I'm pretty sure I know the answer but can't find a clear reference.
Click to expand...

Quote from the CFC site, "frequently asked questions" (see last para) Print it off and carry it with you. I asked the local RCMP this same question and they said you can not lend/borrow a firearm under any circumstances..Bull!

Q. Can I borrow a firearm that is registered to someone else?

Yes, if you have a firearms licence that is valid for that class of firearm. When you borrow the firearm, the lender must also lend you the registration certificate so you can provide proof that the firearm is registered.

If you are borrowing a restricted or prohibited firearm, and you intend to transport it to another location, you are required to have an Authorization to Transport (ATT) from the Chief Firearms Officer of the province where the firearm is located, for the firearm being borrowed. An ATT is not required if you are transporting non-restricted firearms.

In order to obtain an Authorization to Transport a restricted or prohibited firearm, you can apply by calling 1-800-731-4000 or by submitting form CAFC 679 to the Chief Firearms Officer.

""If you do not have a valid firearms licence, or if your licence is not valid for the class of firearm you wish to borrow, you may borrow the firearm only if you are under the direct and immediate supervision of an appropriately licensed adult (aged 18 or older) and there are no court orders prohibiting you from possessing firearms or other weapons.""
 
the discussion seems largely 'Ontario-centric'. Have any of you folks in the eastern half of the country EVER had a game warden / conservation officer ask to see your PAL or registration certificate? It seems like a non-issue in the west (from my experience anyhow). They'll check your gun and hunting license, and ensure compliance with provincial game laws, but there seems to be an unwritten distaste for the federal laws. Not their jurisdiction so they don't even ask.

BTW - most (or at least many) RCMP officers seem famously oblivious to hunting regulations...
 
If you don't have a PAL you can't buy OR borrow a firearm. You must have a PAL or POL to be in possession of a firearm. If you only have a POL, the firearm in your possession must be registered to you.
That may change somewhat when the LGR is scrapped.
 
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