Guns Africa Dangerous game

Boomer, those effects you mention are probably factors. There still remains the phenomenon that certain sub-sonic bullets actually penetrate significantly more than the same bullet going super-sonic. Of course, we're talking about the speed of sound in water, which is quite a bit faster than the speed of sound in air. How does drag compare between the same shape going sub-sonic vs super-sonic. I thought that drag is actually increased as the object approaches super sonic speeds due to the compressed medium immediately forward of the object. It's been about 30 years since I took fluid dynamics, and I've pretty much forgotten everything I studied, so I could be completely wrong. One think I am sure about, since I've seen results, is that for certain speeds, particularly with the large calibers, the slow bullet penetrates further than the faster bullet for certain velocities (and only certain bullets). This is counter-intuitive since clearly the faster bullet has more momentum. My guess is that it has something to do with transonic effects, but that is only a wild guess.

Added: There is an interesting video that shows a surprisingly poor penetration of the 50 BMG through water-filled Milk jugs. The shock it produces is truly awesome, but the penetration is only a meager 5 jugs, with the bullet found under the fifth jug. You can see the video here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=375afd5BMuA . Then there is another video of a 45-70 bullet going through twelve, 1-gallon jugs of water, for complete penetration of all 12 jugs. The shock, however, is nothing in comparison with the 50 BMG. You can see the 45-70 video here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkWGXQ2CfNk
For some reason, the much faster, much heavier, more streamlined, pointed 50 Cal bullet, in a fluid medium, generates a tremendous amount of shock but only meager penetration, whereas the soup-can shaped 45-70 bullet putting along at a modest velocity generates only a modest shock, but impressive penetration. Which would kill better? Judging from the explosion of water in the 50 BMG hit, I figure the 50 BMG is the way to go if you want the target to die right now.
 
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All i know is I would feel pretty safe sitting on the roof of the truck with Rick or Kevan beside me :D

Anything moving from 20-1500 yards should be scared.
 
mikeelliot said:
All i know is I would feel pretty safe sitting on the roof of the truck with Rick or Kevan beside me :D

Anything moving from 20-1500 yards should be scared.
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Thank-you for the kind words Mike....sure makes an old soon-to-be pensioner feel good...ohhh by the way, did I mention that my eyesight is sorta failing ?? ;)
 
Win 38-55, with regards to penetration of high a low velocity bullets, bullets of the same shape and construction simplify the comparison as many variables can come into play. I think that the .50 BMG bullet (an unstable bullet when met with resistance) swapped ends and once base forward came apart limiting penetration. This is supported by the fact that the bullet core was found near the impact point. The .45/70 test WFN bullet produced straight line penetration and remained stable, and therefore produced better penetration.

A high velocity bullet as it penetrates a target looses velocity. When it's velocity matches that of a low velocity bullet the performance from that point on should be similar.
 
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Boomer said:
A high velocity bullet as it penetrates a target looses velocity. When it's velocity matches that of a low velocity bullet the performance from that point on should be similar.
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I'm pretty sure you are right about the 50 BMG tumbling. However, what you said about when the velocity (of the higher velocity bullet) matching the velocity of the lower velocity bullet, the performance (penetration?) should be similar is what intuitively seems right, but I've seen and read of several tests that show the opposite. For many bullets this is true, but for some it is not, with the .458 caliber cast bullets frequently falling into this latter category. This means that the faster bullet slows down faster than the slower bullet even after it has dropped below the speed of sound in fluid filled organs. I know that does not make sense. If it were just one incident, I'd say it was a fluke, but over the past few years, I've seen several examples of this.

Example: Here is one such example done with a 38-56 and a cast 375449 bullet. Bullet weight was 255 grains and bullet diameter was .377". A total of 25 shots per load were fired (so sample size for each load is decent) into wet clay. Here are the results for three different loads:

375449 bullet
Avg. Vel. ....... Avg. penetration in wet clay @ 100 yards
1,738 fps ....... 7 & 1/2"
1,650 fps ....... 10 & 1/2"
1,390 fps ....... 12 & 1/8"

An additional 25 rounds with a Barnes bullet, same weight, was also fired:
1,980 fps ....... 6 & 1/8" penetration

In some cases, I would explain it by saying that the faster bullet expanded more, increasing its drag, and that may be the case here, but some hard cast tests had zero expansion at the various test velocities. You would think that the faster bullets, having more momentum, would penetrate further. Who would have thought that a cast bullet chugging along at a pathetic 1,390 fps would penetrate almost twice the distance as the same bullet at 1,738 fps and twice the distance as the Barnes bullet smoking along at 1,980 fps.

I think that most bullets probably follow our intuitions and give increased penetration for increased velocity, and I've seen plenty of tests that support this as well, but there are some, particularly in the older, heavier calibers that do not seem to fit the rule.

Incidentally, I read of one report that showed that penetration for a particular solid bullet and caliber (I can't recall the details, but I do recall it was a .458 caliber bullet .... maybe the 458 Win Mag) gave decreasing penetration as the velocity was increased up to a point, at which time the trend reversed. This is what makes me think it has something to do with fluid dynamics, as none of this seems to hold true in dry or hard materials (i.e., in dry materials, increased velocity gives increased penetration, no exceptions ..... unless we're talking about varmint bullets that can come apart at impact .....?). Perhaps it is due to a combination of things .... faster expansion at faster speeds, bullet break-up at higher speeds, and propensity for tumbling at higher speeds. The 50 BMG is explained by tumbling, the 38-56 by expansion, etc. If that is the case, then there really is no phenomenon here at all. One thing I have done about this over the past 3 years, is to slow down the velocity of my big bore cast bullets, believing that slow, heavy bullets penetrate very well at slow velocities. So far, I've only three Whitetail deer at these slower velocities (two 200-pounders and one 125 pounder) and obtained complete penetration in all cases with slow moving cast bullets. African game is another matter, but I know of a couple men now who have used a 45-70 with the right bullet and the right load, that seem to have done well, although I think they used pretty powerful loads. Granted, the same bullet in a .458 Win Mag or a 460 Rem Mag would probably have killed the animals even better ..... stop watches would have to be used, of course, to see how fast the animal hit the ground.
 
geologist said:
I've read that .50 BMG from an M2HB would be effective on "soft" targets out to 2000m. Soft targets included unarmoured vehickles and concrete buildings.
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Soft targets like animals yes, at 1000 yards 647 FMJs will not pass through 3/8 plate steel.
I know this from using my 50 for hunting big game and shooting steel plates regularly.
Most African countries are not big on hunters bringing in 50 bmg rifles to hunt with, I tried several different countries in Africa, before settling on South Africa who would allow me to bring 1 in for hunting purposes.
My experience with long range deer and the 50 is that 750 gr Amaxs do not exit, 750 gr bonded hollow points do.

I agree with Boomer that most of African PHs like for clients to bring howitzers, I believe however this is an attempt to make up for the fact that PHs always try to get hunters to take chest or shoulder shots, neither of which are instantly incapacitating.
Better marksmanship and an understanding of the anatomy of African animals makes instant kill shots possible with far smaller calibers.
 
to anser the original question -- get yourself a new CZ in .404 jeffery or the somewhat harder recoiling .416 rigby or even the "lowly" .375 hh and you will never look back. Bed it, bolt it, put a low/medium good scope with removable capability (just in case) - practice out to 300-400 yds, load solids and softs and you are set for whatever may come your way
 
Win 38-55, you've peaked my interest here, and seeing as how my pal Pounder has a supply of 480 gr hardcast WFN's and a .458 Lott, it seems like a good excuse to run a test.

Just to be sure I've got the parameters right; you predict that if I shoot a hard cast 480 gr WFN at 2100 fps and a second hard cast 480 gr WFN at 1300, into an aquious medium, and should there be no or at least minimal deformation of each bullet, the slower bullet will out penetrate the faster bullet.

With any luck I should be able to get it done over the weekend.
 
Boomer, that sounds like an ideal gun, caliber, and bullet for the test. Some bullets demonstrate the phenomenon and others do not, but your set up certainly sounds like it is in the right ball park. Here is what I'd recommend ..... do 3 shots each with some loads spanning say,

1,200 fps
1,500 fps
2,100 fps

Hopefully we see something interesting.
 
Win 38-55 said:
Boomer, that sounds like an ideal gun, caliber, and bullet for the test. Some bullets demonstrate the phenomenon and others do not, but your set up certainly sounds like it is in the right ball park. Here is what I'd recommend ..... do 3 shots each with some loads spanning say,

1,200 fps
1,500 fps
2,100 fps

Hopefully we see something interesting.
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We'll see what we can do, weather permitting.
 
The 338LAI I took last June dropped my 2050 lb Eland at 550 yards, used a 325 gr Wildcat bullet, penetration was over 5 feet and I recovered 313 grains of bullet.
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you got to love it when that happens.
 
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