gunsmith lathe

Well, let's face it. Grizzly, Harbour Freight, Busy Bee and other's all sell the same stuff. These machines all come out of Taiwan or similar. So other than the name and colour of the paint we're mostly looking at the same level of parts and quality.

Some of you obviously work in the trades or otherwise make your livings from your machines. And because of that I can fully understand why you're calling for bigger and better machines.

But this will be the guy's HOBBY! He's not going to be doing this for a living. So there's really no justification to suggest he buy bigger and better given that it means sinking a ton of money into the result. It's a machine that will be used for a maybe 2 to 3 hours per week on the average over the course of a year. Not 6 or more hours per day like you guys are doing.

I've been using my own belt drive 12x36 Taiwanese lathe for a little over 20 years now. During that whole time I've never even come close to breaking anything. And for all the complaints of poor accuracy I can still do half thou cuts with sharp tooling for accurate sizing. It has been a good enough machine that I've never found myself wanting anything else as my home hobby machine.

The ONLY downside, if you can even call it that, is that the machine has always proven to work best with HSS tools instead of carbide insert tooling. And likely that is only because I've not spent a lot of time figuring out which carbide grades and inserts works best with what material.
 
BCRider said:
Well, let's face it. Grizzly, Harbour Freight, Busy Bee and other's all sell the same stuff. These machines all come out of Taiwan or similar. So other than the name and colour of the paint we're mostly looking at the same level of parts and quality.

Some of you obviously work in the trades or otherwise make your livings from your machines. And because of that I can fully understand why you're calling for bigger and better machines.

But this will be the guy's HOBBY! He's not going to be doing this for a living. So there's really no justification to suggest he buy bigger and better given that it means sinking a ton of money into the result. It's a machine that will be used for a maybe 2 to 3 hours per week on the average over the course of a year. Not 6 or more hours per day like you guys are doing.

I've been using my own belt drive 12x36 Taiwanese lathe for a little over 20 years now. During that whole time I've never even come close to breaking anything. And for all the complaints of poor accuracy I can still do half thou cuts with sharp tooling for accurate sizing. It has been a good enough machine that I've never found myself wanting anything else as my home hobby machine.

The ONLY downside, if you can even call it that, is that the machine has always proven to work best with HSS tools instead of carbide insert tooling. And likely that is only because I've not spent a lot of time figuring out which carbide grades and inserts works best with what material.
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Aye. Hobby. Pretty important to keep that in mind.

Accuracy comes from the operator. I proved that again and again, putting apprentice tradesmen (it was always the guys, for some reason, something to do with read the direction, follow the direction, which the females apprentices didn't seem to have as much problem with) on to a lathe that was worth more than the average house price when it was built in Switzerland. And on that lathe, they still got crappy looking, inaccurate work. This all in response to the common complaint that it was because of the lathe that the work was not turning out.

What you get when you buy a industrial machine, is durability fit to run three shifts on, for as long as it takes to amortize the cost of the machine. You don't all of a sudden get good parts instead of bad ones, by buying a heavy duty industrial lathe. Operator must learn each lathe's strengths and weaknesses, and learn how to make each machine work for them. Must be 10 percent smarter than the machine!

I like carbide well enough but for stuff I do not have to make in a hurry, or a hundred or more times in a day, HSS is great. A guy could do a lot worse than to learn how to use either as the situation demands. But trying to bypass learning how to sharpen your own tool bits, is a false economy. Without at least some knowledge of how the tool edge should be, and how to make it so, you are always dependent upon a supply of ready made replacements.

If you want a treat, as far as carbide tooling goes, take a good look at the inserts that end in "GT". CCGT, CMGT, etc. They are a polished, very sharp, positive rake tool that works very much like a HSS tool, at HSS speeds. The downside of them for a beginner, is learning how to work with them without chipping them from bumping them in to not-moving work, or such. And learning to keep the back of your hands away from them, they are bloody sharp! Learn a little bit about how to read a carbide tool catalog, to see how they recommend that they be run. Once you get used to using carbide tools, you soon enough find out that the tool life in hobby use is darn near infinite, with bumblefinger issues being the cause of replacement, rather than wear. Usually. Often? Sometimes? :D

Keep firmly in mind that the speeds and feeds in the books are there to allow a shop owner to see the maximum return on their investment in a production environment, and that running slower speeds or lighter feeds usually (but not always) will result in longer tool life. Decide if you want it done fast, and if the wear on the tool is worth pushing it a little. Speeds and feeds are suggested, and for the above reason, Return on investment. Remember that there are lots of variables! A guy with a monster heavy cast bed anchored to the granite of the Canadian Shield, still has to learn how THAT lathe works best, so does the guy with the crappy hobby lathe that he stores in a desk drawer. The operator runs the lathe, not (or, should not) be the reverse.

Oh yeah, I have an industrial quality lathe that I store in a desk drawer. It was made by Marshall, and was meant to be used by someone making watch parts or similar sized work. It is plenty rigid for what it needs to do.

When you are doing only one part, that taking the time to do it right beats the heck out of having to do it over. :)

Just some sorta random thoughts from my experiences! :) Use 'em or not as you see fit!

Cheers
Trev
 
I agree with Trevj wholeheartedly. Is it worthwhile having a hobby lathe...you bet it is... the question is not what it cost cash-wise, its can you deal with the aggravation of a whole bunch of ideas and projects that you can't fulfill.

I have the same lathe as the 4003G only it was sold by a now defunct company, House of
tools with a different color of green paint. Although I have owned the lathe for a dozen years or so I have only used it much in the last two yrs (due to a domestic "space problem" issue it was in storage) and what Trev says about the quality of work from such a machine is entirely in the hands of the operator. It has taken me two yrs of practice to be comfortable enough with what I am doing that I will attempt some jobs on expensive guns. That's not to say that I haven't put the thing to good use making replica cannons, civil war mortars and a myriad of other fun stuff.
Now that I have some confidence in my ability, in the last week I have bobbed off a bulged 45-90 chamber from an original #4 weight 1885 Win. barrel (sacrilege I know, but unusable the way it was), re-threaded & re-chambered it . I enlarged the rim seat chamber on two Rem. R/B barrels to accept the 50-70 and 50-90 cases I have (someone had already run a chambering reamer into them but hadn't used a rim cutter that was large enough). I now have a usable, interchangeable 3 barrel set for my R/B, 45-70..50-70..50-90 . I have drilled three old sewer-pipe barrels out to receive barrel liners ( when the snow goes so I can get to my scrap iron pile I will be building a hydraulic liner inserter). One of the liners is for a 38-56 Marlin so I built 3 brass forming dies to form brass from 45-70 cases (they work beautifully). All this in one week of spare time.

I have one more "novelty" shooting project to start next week and hope to have it done before the Calgary spring gun show...watch for it, it'll be nothing you have ever seen before..LOL

Ask me again if I don't think a lathe is worth the cost...save up...drive your old car or truck for one more year, the payments saved will more than buy a hobby lathe.
 
Here is a link to the review I did of my G4003G lathe.

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/1033082-Grizzly-G4003G-Gunsmiths-Lathe-Review

All this hate on machines made over seas yet even Southbend machines are made in Taiwan or China. To say everything that comes out of China and Taiwan is the same quality is pure BS. It's the customer that determines the level of the quality of product.

Craftex and King lathes are pure chit and I wouldn't touch one if they were the last machine on the planet. They feel like crap as if there is sand in the gear boxes. Sloppy as hell and just disgusting workmanship in manufacturing them.

If you buy a combo lathe/mill your really going to regret it later. There is nothing versatile about these machines.
 
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I looked at the Grizzlys, but have pretty much settled on a Sharpe 14x40, made in Taiwan. It is around $5k and comes with a great set of tooling and 2" bore
 
kingcole2 said:
Wow great info, thanks for all the post. Now to line up a good mentor that wants to visit my part of the world. Free travel and room and board :p
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Careful what you wish for! :D


Another book suggestion for you to check out the used books online places for. Technology of Machine Tools, by Krar (and others). It is a High school/college level basics book of running machine tools and learning some of the how's and why's. Awesome book but too much money new. Good news is that the new ones have more info on CNC, less on manual machining. Look for an old one! Kapiche?

Skip Machinery's Handbook. It's the mother of all wall charts, and a great reference tool for a guy that can't get to a computer to check stuff online, but is not in any way, a "How To" book. Grab a couple years old edition for $20, rather than dropping $70-$90 for a copy. The money is better spent elsewhere. I kept a 23rd Edition around. I gave away a couple other copies I had to friends along the way. Pay around $20, tops, and it's a pretty good addition to the book shelf, but you will find you only really need it when you need something obscure, and very often it does NOT contain what you need. Like the specs to cut a UNJ thread. True story! :)

Village Press Publications publishes Home Shop Machinist Magazine and others. They also publish bound collections of groups of articles and projects from the magazines. Great books and make a swell Christmas gift! If you can thumb through one of them without either learning something new, or having ideas go off in yer head like firecrackers, y'all got to either write some of it down (in the former case) or y'all got no imagination whatsoever (in the latter)! Check out thir site and their Home Shop Machinist Forum, if you have not yet.

Per colt45cz75 above, SOMETIMES a decent machine tool can be had for less than a years bar tab. Depends where you live, and how hard you are at the bar tab gig too. I'll buy all he'll ship to me, including the clapped out ones, if he'll sell them to me for what I have spent in bars over the last year! Lousy deal for him, good for me!

Used machine tools requires a acceptance of a bunch of risks, it requires the ability to accurately assess the quality and condition of the machine, and most of all, it requires that you be able to wait, and live without a machine tool at all while you do so.
Not all "Old Iron" Is good. Some is just clapped out junk, and if you buy into the line on some sources, that old American Iron is always best, you can end up with a crappy anchor pretty easily IF there are any machines at all available to choose from. The name is worth a lot less than the condition! Once you have condition, name make a good selling feature, I gotta admit, but it's the condition you really (REALLY) need to look at first, before you decide if you gotta have it.
That is another aspect of dealing with old iron that you gotta deal with. Educate yourself as best you can, else some guy with a blurry picture and a couple choice buzz words in his advert, is gonna do it for you! :D

We are blessed to live in an era when we are able to afford to buy a machine tool as a hobby instrument at all. When guys compare a new Chinese lathe that cost $5000 new, to a lathe that cost $50K new, 35 years of hard use ago, they are not comparing products that were built for the same purposes. You don't get a free pass to whinge about an F150 that you bought to pull a tractor trailer with, eh? But it's a truck, it should work like a truck, right? Only sorta. Lathes are like that. Monarchs and Mazak's are pretty nice if you can find a good one, but limiting your entry into a hobby because you cannot find one, is foolish, and, frankly, the loss of potentially years of enjoyment of a hobby by that person that waits.
Without the Asian Import machine tools, Machining, as a hobby, would just about be a non-starter.

Even the prices on the bog standard Myford Super 7 Lathe and South Bend 9 inch series machines climbed past stupid heights into the stratosphere at the end of their respective runs. A working class guy could actually afford to buy either, for the longest time. Not cheap, but affordable if a guy wanted one. But no matter how hard you justify it, neither was ever a $20K lathe, which was where they were priced before they each, respectively, cratered in as companies.
Oh, the South Bend that is selling lathes today, is just another brand owned by the owner of Grizzly Tools. He bought the IP rights to use the name and is selling a slightly better(ish) imported machine under that name.

The South Bend Lathe Company that made the lathes of old, were unable to evolve, and were making essentially the same product that they made back in the 1930's. It eventually killed them.

Cheers
Trev
 
Golden words there Trev. Again I found myself nodding in agreement with every point.

Trev's thoughts on the used name brand stuff vs new is particularly accurate. It's one thing for someone like myself that lives in the GVRD area where I can go and physically inspect a used machine and bring along a few measuring tools to check for wear and condition. With that ability I can determine if I should offer money or just walk away. As for your case where you're buying remotely? Not a chance that I'd go with used with no way to check the condition. And as a newbie you don't even know what to check for.

So while the guys that are suggesting you buy a used older classic are offering good advice I would suggest that in your case it's not really valid. You lack the ability to inspect any such machine both due to your remoteness and due to your lack of knowledge and skills on what to look for and how to measure any wear. And this is even if you manage to locate something near enough that you could drive over and examine the machine.
 
I go too auctions often and there are always decent lathes for sale, good name brands too. Goto auctions, over time you will find great deals
 
If you don't mind doing barrels with the steady, you can get a bigger/better machine, but if you want to do them through the headstock the selection is more limited, but good enough for hobby and gun work.
Always good to keep in mind that industrial machines will be 3phase.

I've used about 60+ different manual lathes so far, small to big machines and got 3 of my own, and I can say there's never been 1 that didn't have something that would have been a little better or different have it be brand new, top brand name, or 100 yr old, but most could get the job done, though not necessarily the most efficiently.
It helps a lot to have a machine properly sized for the type of work you need to do. I could use a 4th and a 5th lathe sometimes.

Buy good tooling and play carefully, no loose clothing, no grabbing stuff that spins with your hands or gloves of any kind, and extra careful with emery cloth, use pieces that shorter than the circumference of the part ideally. Don't stick anything out the back of the headstock more than a few inches unless using really good supports/guides, and make sure nobody else will walk into it. Knew one guy that lost his shirt darn quick that way and had a nice thread pattern imprinted...
 
Here. The single most important thing to ever know about tools.

ANY lathe (or, fill in the tool name of choice)you actually have, is way better than the perfect one you don't!

Make do. It's all about who operates the machine!

Cheers
Trev
 
trevj said:
Here. The single most important thing to ever know about tools.

ANY lathe (or, fill in the tool name of choice)you actually have, is way better than the perfect one you don't! Make do. It's all about who operates the machine!

Cheers
Trev
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X2. Had the use of a really tired, worn South Bend Heavy 10. Old enough to have a tap clutch, rather than the lever. Grab the toolpost, it would move in and out 1/4". But I could still do a good job of chambering a barrel on it. Or basic turning. Forget cutting threads.
Have a book describing how to fit and chamber barrels, and how to make a floating reamer holder. Guy does good work. His lathe? One of the despised hobby combo lathe/mills.
 
CanAm said:
This is the one I am looking at:

http://www.sharpmachinetools.com/PDFs/1440G.pdf

DRM, tons of tooling, taper unit, swiss toolholder, and on and on. And they are 4 blocks from my office.

Maybe I can swing a group buy? ;)
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Pretty nice machine. Will do a lot more than the hobbyist will every try. What is it going to cost?

I had a sharp belt drive lathe for years it was great. And that is in comparison to the high end stuff I had to use at work everyday.
 
dumprat said:
Pretty nice machine. Will do a lot more than the hobbyist will every try. What is it going to cost?

I had a sharp belt drive lathe for years it was great. And that is in comparison to the high end stuff I had to use at work everyday.
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I will drop by tomorrow and confirm but the price in October was around $5k. Seemed like a good deal given that the lathe was well set up and well tooled

I have worked my way up to this one, but would love a full cast lathe. Not keen on spending over $10k, though.
 
Other than the digital readout, my lathe is identical to the Sharp..

If I do my part, that lathe will do everything and anything that I ask of it.

I have three different tool posts for mine and use all of them. It originally came with the Suisse. Then, because I was offered a contract job for several different pieces, I went to the North American style split pedestal post. Saved a lot of time and let me completed the contract to the satisfaction of the client in a short time, when time was an issue money wise. Now, I use an Aloris head with 8 interchangeable tool holders. This head is a dream come true. 15 seconds to change out a pre fitted tool on the post. Expensive, Yes.

That is a great machine Can Am, that digital readout is a nice feature. As for the coolant delivery system, mine left a bit to be desired and I fabbed up two different units with better filtering systems on the return lines and adjustable flow systems. I also found the halogen lamps to be hot as hell and expensive to replace the bulbs.

The machine functions are simple and work well. My only complaint are the indicator marks on the adjustment wheels. I usually set up a dial indicator for more precise work. Sometimes two or even three, depending on how many different cuts will be made at that position.
 
bearhunter said:
Other than the digital readout, my lathe is identical to the Sharp..

If I do my part, that lathe will do everything and anything that I ask of it.

I have three different tool posts for mine and use all of them. It originally came with the Suisse. Then, because I was offered a contract job for several different pieces, I went to the North American style split pedestal post. Saved a lot of time and let me completed the contract to the satisfaction of the client in a short time, when time was an issue money wise. Now, I use an Aloris head with 8 interchangeable tool holders. This head is a dream come true. 15 seconds to change out a pre fitted tool on the post. Expensive, Yes.

That is a great machine Can Am, that digital readout is a nice feature. As for the coolant delivery system, mine left a bit to be desired and I fabbed up two different units with better filtering systems on the return lines and adjustable flow systems. I also found the halogen lamps to be hot as hell and expensive to replace the bulbs.

The machine functions are simple and work well. My only complaint are the indicator marks on the adjustment wheels. I usually set up a dial indicator for more precise work. Sometimes two or even three, depending on how many different cuts will be made at that position.
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what model is yours?

I plan on using LED to replace the halogen
 
I get the feeling this particular Sharp (Sharp machine tools in BC) is not the same as Sharp Industries, which is the big importer in the US that some Canadian dealers sell as well, they are one of the more popular importers.
Badge ain't the same, most models aren't the same one example is Sharp has its own version of the hlv-h...

Though that 1440G does look fine for gunsmith/hobby stuff, from my chair anyway. Just don't confused them with the lineup of Sharp Industries(which is not necessarily all that much better depending on model/builder).

The import machine tool market is a really horrible nightmare to figure out and most dealers are liars and slimier than a used car salesman, and most importers will randomly switch manufacturers so a model that is good one year can be complete sh*t the next. There's also many builders making similar copies that look the about the same on a picture, but in person if you know what you're looking at, there's big differences. More money won't also get you a better machine either, there's some dealers in Canada importing the cheap copies and selling them for as much or more $ than the better ones, I noticed that a lot with the mazak mate copies. There's also some old brand names selling the same crap from the same factory, or worse.. and doubling the prices trying to sell you their old worthless name.

Either way... most are fine for hobby/gun stuff in the end, but if you have to make $ at this, it can be costly.
Definitely don't mess around with the small 3in1 machines, better off to buy a benchtop mill later or a real vertical mill. There once was a few builders of great manual multi-purpose industrial machines(not hobby toys) but they're long gone.
 
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