GunVault

Hey guys ! Nice looking safes here..it just slapped me that i'd want a safe that i can pull out really fast the Norinco M1911 from Armco that want to buy in the next months :D ! But i need to pass the course and exam first..

I'm wondering a bit over the electronic safes..Sure,the Inprint seem the way to go ,put your finger then get the handgun pretty quickly..But what happen if the batteries go flat,the electronic fail or ..*gasp*..North America receive a EMP right in the face :eek: !?

Don't laught,next solar season who will peak in 2010-2011 might be one of the strongest since we began to register them 400 years ago :( ..

Schneider :D
 
They have Keyed master locks.

I am seriously considering an in-the-wall safe for the bedroom.
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Picture those behind paintings or fabric wall coverings.

Alternatively, I may build one into the floor.


Hidden, stores a couple handguns and ammo and papers, and it's uber cool.

Girlfriend likes "neat" things. I am building a "hidden" gun safe in the basement as well. If our property wasn't so low , I had permission to build a tunnel from the Basement to the back shed. Water table too high though to be practical.
 
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CanFire said:
I'd like to see the CPC change it to just "stored in a vault or safe." and add another 'or' option regarding a specially constructed/modified room
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This IS how it is worded. You can choose either 6(b)(i) OR 6(b)(ii) to store your restricted firearms. Wording in 6(b)(i) does not apply to 6(b)(ii). If you choose 6(b)(ii) your options are:

1. Vault;
2. Safe or;
3. Room that has been specifically constructed or modified for the secure storage of restricted firearms and that is kept securely locked.

There is no definition in the Act defining what a vault or a safe is.

If your firearms are stolen there is a good chance that you will be charged with improper storage of a firearm regardless of whether it was stored in a “vault”, or a “safe” or a “room that has been specifically constructed or modified for the secure storage of restricted firearms and that is kept securely locked” There is plenty of case law/precedent of this happening in Canada. If this happens it is up to you (or rather your lawyer) to prove you were in compliance. This is where the wording of the manufacturers claims is important. If you have a device that claims it is a vault or safe you are on fairly solid ground. If it is validated or approved by associations such as locksmiths, underwriters (insurance companies/associations) etc. even better. If it claims it is a “gun safe” even better still and can only help your case, but these are only bonus as there is nothing in the Act that requires the safe to be a certain type or to be “approved” by someone or an organization.

There is also no requirement in the Act that it be bolted down. However if your safe or vault comes with holes and/or bolts to secure it and you don’t install them there is a good chance the crown will argue that they needed to be for the vault/safe to function correctly. If this happens be prepared to prove that your vault or safe still functions as a vault or safe without the bolts installed. I’m sure your lawyer will be happy to take this on ($$$). In short a vault is a vault and a safe is a safe, your options are “or” not “and”. Words from the conditions of the “room” or words from 6(b)(i) do not apply to a safe or vault and are mutually exclusive.

The most ambiguous option in the Act for storage is the “room that has been specifically constructed or modified for the secure storage of restricted firearms and that is kept securely locked”. There is no specific definition of “securely locked”. Again precedent says if your firearms are stolen from your “room” you will be charged with improper storage and likely have to prove in court you met the conditions. Depending on the sensitively and the politics surrounding your case you may have lots of crown “experts” come in and say your room was built incompetently and could be blown down by a five year old.

I do not have a gun room but have been advised that if you have a “room” get it inspected by a locksmith and have them give you a letter saying it is a “vault”, or a “safe” or a “room that has been specifically constructed or modified for the secure storage of restricted firearms and that is kept securely locked”. And/or have your insurance company inspect it and state it meets their terms of a “vault”, or a “safe” or a “room that has been specifically constructed or modified for the secure storage of restricted firearms and that is kept securely locked”. If you have a “room” you likely have so much stuff you have it insured anyway and may have already had to do this (though I understand the most policies just take your word). This at least gives you the advantage after the fact that you took “reasonable” steps to ensure your room was correct before storing your firearms in it.

In the end it is all semantics until you get charged and have to do the dance. Anyway my advice is free and without prejudice and you know what they say about free…;) :D
 
Hey MPI !

Don't you think that another way would be to call the CFO and make him inspect the place ? Then ask a writed letter saying "this place is secure"..

Schneider
 
MPI said:
This IS how it is worded. You can choose either 6(b)(i) OR 6(b)(ii) to store your restricted firearms. Wording in 6(b)(i) does not apply to 6(b)(ii). If you choose 6(b)(ii) your options are:

1. Vault;
2. Safe or;
3. Room that has been specifically constructed or modified for the secure storage of restricted firearms and that is kept securely locked.
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Thanks MPI - I sure hope that is how the crown interprets it. I would feel better if it was re-worded or at least re-written the way you've done it above.
 
Just to reinforce what MPI said...

I am an active member of SAVTA and an ALOA CPL. I won't say much in reference to these safes, since a previous thread where I went into detail on why specific safes were garbage was mysteriously deleted, but I will say this: even though the word "safe" is not defined, that doesn't mean you can use any old box just because it has a lock on it. The terminology was most likely purposely left ambiguous so that when it comes down to it, the crown will have its "experts" decide what is and what is not a safe in each specific "improper storage" case.

Forget about any other "organization" or standard. No "expert" will ever try to say that using a UL-listed container was "improper storage". So if you are buying one container to "meet the minimums" make damn sure its a good one. Even if you buy a cheap UL-listed container like those crappy tire Sentry/Garrison boxes, the fact that it is only UL listed for "fire protection" and not "burglary protection" PLUS it has a non-UL listed key lock on the container may open you up to prosecution.

Physical security devices are covered under Underwriters Laboratories STP #687. If there is any type of auxiliary (aka override) key lock on your container, make sure it meets UL 437. If your container's sole locking mechanism is by key, make sure it meets UL 786. If there is a combination lock on your container, make sure it meets UL 768. If there is electronic lock on your container, make sure it meets UL 1034. The container as a whole should meet UL 687. I wish I could give you more details on what those standards require, but UL has chosen to make people pay for that information. Your local library may have a book with details on UL standards. Just keep in mind that any container that is UL listed will have the logo and standard # displayed. If you have to ask if your container is UL-listed, it most likely isn't. UL listing is a big selling point, so it should be pretty obvious when making a purchase.

Remember, just because your container may be UL-listed for "FIRE PROTECTION", doesn't make it a safe. It makes it a FIRE BOX. You should meet the abovementioned BURGLARY PROTECTION standards to make sure your box qualifies as a "safe".

In my professional opinion, this is what I tell everyone who comes to me asking about firearm storage, the ambiguity of the law is not an invitation to use whatever you can scrape up. It is the main reason you should go above and beyond. Firearm storage is no joke. I cringe when I hear people talking about "meeting the minimum" and talking like the government is inconveniencing them because they insist on proper storage procedures. What a stupid thing to say. Like leaving a gun on your kitchen table is okay because you have a tight leash on your kids? What kind of logic is that?
 
yeah but lets be realistic even so called safes are easy to open with sawzalls or torches. All your really doing is buying yourself some time in the event of a break in.

I dont see how those mini gun vaults are anything more than cabinets..
 
If I am not mistaken, the GUNVAULT line is California DOJ approved.... doesn't mean much up here but in court could be stacked on as additional defense I suppose... "your honour, the gun vault was approved as a vault for safe storage by the Dept of Justice in California and since I didn't see anything approving a vault or otherwise in Canada... I picked the best I could pick.... something at least approved for use in another jurisdiction by a respected authority, etc....."

Having said that; my guns are all locked up tight as a drum every day. Trigger lock, action lock, locked in a case, locked in a 'cabinet or safe", locked in a room (happens to be bedroom as that is best place to hide the safe and the farthest from the front door), locked in a house with a ULC burglar alarm system monitored by central station.

And to top it all off, the bedroom door has a combo lock deadbolt on it (although it could be kicked in in a second) and a SEPERATE alarm zone so that it will arm itself if there is no movement in the bedroom and require disarming by keypad by the bedroom door when exiting.

Having said all of that, I heard a story second hand yesterday about a fellow who bought a BROWNING safe from Le Baron in Toronto.... bolted same to his concrete basement floor and had it stolen with guns in it. He was charged with unsafe storage. The reasoning? Simple... if it was SAFE storage it could not have been stolen.

You want some extra peace of mind? Spend $25 a month for a complete alarm system, monitored.... or just $7 or 8 a month for monitoring if you already have a system installed. It won't prevent a theft by a determined thief... but it sure will cut down on his access time a whole bunch. Especially if you take the time to advise the alarm monitoring station that you want your account noted 'firearms and ammunition stored on premises" and call the local police to advise them of the same. They will all appreciate that bit of information and the response time for any and all calls to your premises will improve exponentially. At least it did in our case. We had an attempted home invasion at 3 am a few weeks ago. Pushed the panic button and then called 911 on cellular while the alarm system was dialling out on the BURIED phone lines (with cellular backup). There were ten police cars at the house within a minute or so. With guns drawn. A knock on the door to advise us that the purps were being loaded into the cars and did we see them? Nope..... we didn't unfortunately. But not to worry, they were caught red handed. So to speak. Still trying to pry the hardened front door open.

Oh... one other thing. Forget the cheap $5 deadbolts and plan to invest a grand in locks and hardening. What you will get is a steel frame for the door or at least steel hardening materials. Long deadbolts to replace the wimpy ones you presently have. AND best of all... while you are home, a "BRICK" dead lock that swivels shut behind the door and is almost impossible to kick open with two or three installed and swiveled closed. They are kick ass, but have to be installed properly and tight to the door so there is no leverage room. And man, do they ever work well. I can attest to that... Two guys with crowbars were still working on prying open the door while the police were summoned and arrived to grab them. The only damage were a few pry marks that I fixed up when nobody was looking using some epoxy based filler and remnant paint. Good as new. Spend the money.... a judge will be hard pressed to convict if you have shown intent... honourable intent.... to ensure that you have met and in fact exceeded the ambiguous requirements of the law.

And for chrissake, don't be depending on one of the $129 gun cabinets for safe storage. You are just asking for a prolonged court battle. Would you not rather know in your heart that you have done everything short of building a reinforced concrete room? Even a cold cellar with a steel door installed is suspect if not "hardened".

And the comments regarding ULC are well taken. In the USA... specifications for locks, hinges, construction, etc., are all specified very clearly by the BATFE and are in their "yellow book" - I believe it is online and it would be a good education to have a peek one day..... while you are looking up information on the difference between .45 and 9mm loads and their effects. (I shoot 9mm and .45 for sport target shooting and when south of the border will carry .45 in an appropriate load for self defense).
 
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OK, I went to Costco and found the large gun safe. It's pretty big and heavy, and if someone wanted to carry it out of my house, they'd have a lot of work to do without catching the attention of my neighbours. The price is right to at 439.99. There were no listings on the package that specified any sort of UL rating or even fire and security ratings...? I'm going to wait to be sure I get my PAL before I spend too much money. You never know, they may find out that I skipped out of school when I was 16...LOL.
 
TechNut said:
I'm going to wait to be sure I get my PAL before I spend too much money. You never know, they may find out that I skipped out of school when I was 16.
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You're screwed for sure. ;) :D
 
Schneider27 said:
I'm wondering a bit over the electronic safes..Sure,the Inprint seem the way to go ,put your finger then get the handgun pretty quickly..But what happen if the batteries go flat,the electronic fail or ..*gasp*..North America receive a EMP right in the face :eek: !?
Schneider :D
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I believe any type of these electronic locking safes have a manual key access/override as well.....be silly to buy one that didn't...
 
Yup, I did it, went out to Costco and bought their gun safe, $439.99. This is one heavy item, had to get the brother in law out to help bring it in the house. Now I just hope my PAL comes in soon...LOL. I'm trying to figure out what to put into the safe now....Good thing I can't buy yet, this waiting period is giving me time to research my first handgun purchase...This site is great, full of awesome info, and good connections to on-line dealers.
Thanks,
 
tapedeck74 said:
Safe storage regulations are not about preventing theft.
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You wanna bet your life on it? Cause that's what's going to happen. You have a burglary at home. They get the gun cabinet with the guns out the door. Police arrive. Guns stolen? They must have been improperly stored, right? Hmmmm. We have no clue. Lay the charge and let the court figure it out. $50,000 later - you WIN!

Maybe.


Me. I'd rather invest in the alarm system and the gun safe.


Oh... one other thing. And don't shoot the messenger. One of the sales reps at Le Baron told me that they sold one of those $2,500 Browing safes to a guy, who bolted it to the concrete basement floor and loaded it with guns so it weighed almost a TON on its own. They came dressed as movers and took it away while the fellow was out of town for the weekend.

Guess what the cops did as soon as they found him? You got it. They charged him.... still going through the courts as the sales rep did not have the final result of the fiasco.

Anyone else got any horror stories?

Jeez. In the old days, we used to just chain the damn things together and that was it. In fact... that's all they did in the gun stores.

Doesn't seem to be making much of a difference in terms of theft to have them in a vault these days.

Torontoguyguy


P.S. Anyone got a Sentry or other gun safe for sale? I need a bigger safe!
Must be southern Ontario. I can probably pick up but delivery is better. Depends on price I suppose. In fact, I am ready to buy TWO gun safes while I am out looking. The Costco jobs are okay but they are pretty small for the avid gun guy.
 
TGG,

Exactly...
Safe storage regulations have nothing to do with preventing anyone from stealing your guns.
As you said, you could have your guns stored in a bank vault and if they are stolen you're charged.
For restricted firearms, for example, you are required, at minimum, to have them trigger locked and inside a locked container. (which could be a simple plastic pistol case, sitting on a shelf). That is the legal safe storage requirement. For non-restricted you need them trigger locked, and that's it.

It seems as though current policy is to charge Everybody who has their guns stolen regardless of how they were stored.
Short of fortifying your home (which, quite ironically, is ILLEGAL in Quebec), there's not much you can do to Guarantee that no one is going to get your guns.

Edited to add:

I was trying to find a reference to the prohibition on fortification of homes in Quebec and all I could find was some news articles from 2001 regarding such a law in Blainville. However, I distinctly recall reading an article here on CGN which said that such a law was now in effect throughout Quebec. I'm not 100% sure on this though, as I can't find the article.
 
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