H&K P7 series, why did I wait so long to get them?

[Ardent]

Thanks for the link sigger - you saved me from asking a bunch more stupid questions!

So what P7 models were commonly sold in Canada? Are any still available new?

H&K stopped making this jem recently, pick one up while you can (note that I'm biased, as I'm selling one ) Commonly available are the P7, P7M8 (
very similar to the P7 but with a different trigger guard and mag release), and P7M13, a wide body double stack. P7's run $1300'ish, piad $1800 for my P7M8 used, and I haven't bought an M13 yet. Cheers!

 

[RL1]

ATT, who needs one, I'll be dead. If the authorities want to charge me, they can go right ahead. I'll be happy to slouch in the prisoner's box and decompose while the lawyers argue it out.

or maybe you could donate your body to that creepy BodyWorlds guy and be petrified into "The Shooter"

I LOVE the P7..I shot a buddy's M13 and it was one of the coolest guns I have ever shot...if only it came in .45...I still want one though!

RL

 

[Ardent]

or maybe you could donate your body to that creepy BodyWorlds guy and be petrified into "The Shooter"

I LOVE the P7..I shot a buddy's M13 and it was one of the coolest guns I have ever shot...if only it came in .45...I still want one though!

RL

There's at least one .45 out there... Good luck talking H&K out if it though I think they made seven actually, that number's just floating in my head...

 

[UncleWalther]

Yes, the P7M7 is a .45Auto. But, they only made 6 of them. There's some info about it on the HK Pro website.

 

[Suputin]

H&K stopped making this jem recently, pick one up while you can

+10

I got to try one way back in the early 90's and it took me more than a decade to actually get one for myself. Now that I have it, I'll NEVER sell it.

The biggest problem with the P7 series is the price. It isn't easy to justify the high teens price most of these guns sell for. When TSE brought in the used Polizie PSP's for a more reasonable price, I pounced and got myself one.

The difference between the PSP and P7M8 is relatively minor and actually I quite like the heel release magazine because it works so well.

If you can find spare mags for a reasonable price, get some of those as well. I was lucky and managed to get some out of the US before things changed to make getting spare parts so much more difficult.

 

[Ardent]

The difference between the PSP and P7M8 is relatively minor and actually I quite like the heel release magazine because it works so well.

For sure! It's the best heel release I've ever used, I almost like it better than my M8 release. (I accidentally dropped a mag with my M8 during shooting once, the mag release sticks out quite far to the side compared to a USP of Walther P22/99 etc with a similar release style (paddle), and can be 'bumped' loose)

 

[texdores]

I've had mine (P7M8) for a while. To ensure a better fit for larger hands get a set of Karl Nill grips( distr. in the USA). Make sure you use some blue Locktite on the grip screws. Even with the heat shield the piece gets very hot after 100 rds. in RF mode. A very accurate pistol thanks partially due to the polygonal barrel and the low sight line. I have a few articles from Visier, (international weapons mag, German ), relating the too many fatal accidents on the part of especially the Bavarian Law Enforcement agencies. Apparently training with this type of pistol was inadequate. Personally I think it's the safest pistol ever designed, IF you are properly trained. This is not a pistol for beginners or intermediates!

 

[Ardent]

I've had mine (P7M8) for a while. To ensure a better fit for larger hands get a set of Karl Nill grips( distr. in the USA). Make sure you use some blue Locktite on the grip screws. Even with the heat shield the piece gets very hot after 100 rds. in RF mode. A very accurate pistol thanks partially due to the polygonal barrel and the low sight line. I have a few articles from Visier, (international weapons mag, German ), relating the too many fatal accidents on the part of especially the Bavarian Law Enforcement agencies. Apparently training with this type of pistol was inadequate. Personally I think it's the safest pistol ever designed, IF you are properly trained. This is not a pistol for beginners or intermediates!

Hmm... The same handling safety rules apply to the P7 as most other pistols, only better given you just release your grip pressure and you're on "safe"... I fail to see how this system is not appropriate for "beginners or intermediates" as you say, for I feel those individuals would have more of an issue with a Glock, 1911, or even a double action safety wise.

Please explain what the safety issue is.

And just for reference, the P7's amazing accuracy (stunned me, literally) is due in large part to its barrel being fixed, not so much the rifling configuration or bore axis, but both those are indeed well designed.

 

[redleg]

Hmm... The same handling safety rules apply to the P7 as most other pistols, only better given you just release your grip pressure and you're on "safe"... I fail to see how this system is not appropriate for "beginners or intermediates" as you say, for I feel those individuals would have more of an issue with a Glock, 1911, or even a double action safety wise.

Please explain what the safety issue is.

And just for reference, the P7's amazing accuracy (stunned me, literally) is due in large part to its barrel being fixed, not so much the rifling configuration or bore axis, but both those are indeed well designed.

Here is a bit of a primer on safety issues based on my brief experience with the guns:

Under stress there is a tendancy to squeeze the entire hand including trigger finger. This is made worse with this design as often the inexperienced user will have finger in trigger guard.

also it is possible to not use enough force to fully #### the gun, leaving it inoperable in action.

I have witnessed and suffered from both of these problems.

While either of these issues can be reduced or eliminated with sufficient training, most agencies don't have the time or budget required. Thus the tendancy towards long heavy trigger pulls which try to make up for inadequate training time. The P7 IMHO requires much more time to master, than a Glock, or SIG, and because the system is so different makes cross training or transitioning to/from other systems more difficult.

 

[UncleWalther]

I've had mine (P7M8) for a while. To ensure a better fit for larger hands get a set of Karl Nill grips( distr. in the USA). Make sure you use some blue Locktite on the grip screws. Even with the heat shield the piece gets very hot after 100 rds. in RF mode. A very accurate pistol thanks partially due to the polygonal barrel and the low sight line. I have a few articles from Visier, (international weapons mag, German ), relating the too many fatal accidents on the part of especially the Bavarian Law Enforcement agencies. Apparently training with this type of pistol was inadequate. Personally I think it's the safest pistol ever designed, IF you are properly trained. This is not a pistol for beginners or intermediates!

I found the heat issue fairly irritating. It is not too bad after about 50 rounds, but I noticed the M8 got uncomfortably hot after 100 rounds. But, I pumped the rounds through it in about 15 minutes. It is a minor price to pay for the amazing accuracy and incredible engineering.

I think any pistol is a little confusing for beginners, and they should be properly taught the mechanics of how it functions before handling it. But, other than the cocker and the trigger there are no control levers on the P7 to mess around with. It should be simple once people understand the physics.

Incidentally, it is possible to fire the gun with the cocker. Hold down the trigger, squeeze the cocker, and boom, in that order.

 

[Ardent]

Here is a bit of a primer on safety issues based on my brief experience with the guns:

Under stress there is a tendancy to squeeze the entire hand including trigger finger. This is made worse with this design as often the inexperienced user will have finger in trigger guard.

also it is possible to not use enough force to fully #### the gun, leaving it inoperable in action.

I have witnessed and suffered from both of these problems.

While either of these issues can be reduced or eliminated with sufficient training, most agencies don't have the time or budget required. Thus the tendancy towards long heavy trigger pulls which try to make up for inadequate training time. The P7 IMHO requires much more time to master, than a Glock, or SIG, and because the system is so different makes cross training or transitioning to/from other systems more difficult.

Thank you for the clarification, rather enlightneing actually

 

[UncleWalther]

Does anyone own, or know anyone who has owned the P7K3? It comes with three calibre conversions:

http://www.hkpro.com/p7k3.htm

They show up every once in awhile for sale on the HK Pro boards. The last one I saw was advertised at $4100 US.

 

[acrashb]

You could ask at The Cult.

 

[texdores]

Safety issues with P7M8

Hmm... The same handling safety rules apply to the P7 as most other pistols, only better given you just release your grip pressure and you're on "safe"... I fail to see how this system is not appropriate for "beginners or intermediates" as you say, for I feel those individuals would have more of an issue with a Glock, 1911, or even a double action safety wise.

Please explain what the safety issue is.

And just for reference, the P7's amazing accuracy (stunned me, literally) is due in large part to its barrel being fixed, not so much the rifling configuration or bore axis, but both those are indeed well designed.

I looked up the articles (Vsier - 1994), I referred to and here in short form are the results:
1. Accidentally squeezing grip and trigger simultaneously, or the trigger first and then the grip.
2.Eighty per cent of police officers ( at least in Germany) have a negative attitude towards their service sidearm and prefer not to use them in the first place.
3. Police administrators don't seem to see the necessity to provide adequate training for this type of pistol.
It is also mentioned that the P7M8 was being used by LE forces in Lower Saxony, Thuringia, Saxony , North Rhine-Westphalia and Bavaria. In Baden Wuerttemberg these pistols were only issued to Special Forces Units. There were several serious injuries and a number of "accidental" deaths reported by the police forces and one Special Forces officer shot off his index finger ( I assume it was the left one).
When the New Jersey State Police switched from revolvers to the P7M8 in 1983, three officers shot themselves in the leg during the first month.
All the accidents can be traced to improper use. There is a "Safety Trigger" available (at least it was in 1994) which is very easily installed, btw.
Also of interest is that 95% of unauthorized users could not fire the pistol. These are just a few of the points made in Viser(Sights).
I still maintain that these pistols should only be in the hands of experienced shooters.

 

[Ardent]

I looked up the articles (Vsier - 1994), I referred to and here in short form are the results:
1. Accidentally squeezing grip and trigger simultaneously, or the trigger first and then the grip.
2.Eighty per cent of police officers ( at least in Germany) have a negative attitude towards their service sidearm and prefer not to use them in the first place.
3. Police administrators don't seem to see the necessity to provide adequate training for this type of pistol.
It is also mentioned that the P7M8 was being used by LE forces in Lower Saxony, Thuringia, Saxony , North Rhine-Westphalia and Bavaria. In Baden Wuerttemberg these pistols were only issued to Special Forces Units. There were several serious injuries and a number of "accidental" deaths reported by the police forces and one Special Forces officer shot off his index finger ( I assume it was the left one).
When the New Jersey State Police switched from revolvers to the P7M8 in 1983, three officers shot themselves in the leg during the first month.
All the accidents can be traced to improper use. There is "Safety Trigger" available (at least it was in 1994) which is very easily installed, btw.
Also of interest is that 95% of unauthorized users could not fire the pistol. These are just a few of the points made in Viser(Sights).
I still maintain that these pistols should only be in the hands of experienced shooters.

Very interesting, I must concede, you certainly proved your point.

 

[HKfan]

I agree to some extent with Texdores that the P7 is certainly not a beginners pistol. However, someone with a good understanding of pistol handling should be able to operate the pistol very safely.

One thing you said about unauthorised users comes to mind. I know a guy who used to carry an M13 and he showed me one of the things he liked about it one day. He was able to remove the striker by turning it with his nail. That way, he reasoned, if he was ever in a situation where he would have to surrender his pistol to a bad guy he could ensure that it would not be used against himself.

As for not having enough strength to pull the grip cocker (if shot, or otherwise just weak), I would say that in the latter case if you don't have enough strength in your hand to pull a 9lb cocker with 3 fingers then it is unlikely that you will be able to control and fire your Glock with a 5lb trigger in any event!

Overall they are great pistols. I just bought 2 P7M8's (NIB) since they have been discontinued. I would like to get an M13 again as well. I have a PSP which is no where near as nice looking or shooting than the M8 IMHO (functionality: mag release and heat shield, and aesthetically the trigger guard looks nicer on the M8). I would like an M10, but besides being HUGE I find them slightly ugly!

 

[UncleWalther]

The M8's are getting hard to find..... where were you lucky enough to find two NIB HKFan?

I agree to some extent with Texdores that the P7 is certainly not a beginners pistol. However, someone with a good understanding of pistol handling should be able to operate the pistol very safely.

One thing you said about unauthorised users comes to mind. I know a guy who used to carry an M13 and he showed me one of the things he liked about it one day. He was able to remove the striker by turning it with his nail. That way, he reasoned, if he was ever in a situation where he would have to surrender his pistol to a bad guy he could ensure that it would not be used against himself.

As for not having enough strength to pull the grip cocker (if shot, or otherwise just weak), I would say that in the latter case if you don't have enough strength in your hand to pull a 9lb cocker with 3 fingers then it is unlikely that you will be able to control and fire your Glock with a 5lb trigger in any event!

Overall they are great pistols. I just bought 2 P7M8's (NIB) since they have been discontinued. I would like to get an M13 again as well. I have a PSP which is no where near as nice looking or shooting than the M8 IMHO (functionality: mag release and heat shield, and aesthetically the trigger guard looks nicer on the M8). I would like an M10, but besides being HUGE I find them slightly ugly!

 

[Suputin]

I don't care what anyone says. ......... I LOVE my PSP.

 

[Ardent]

I don't care what anyone says. ......... I LOVE my PSP.

I've got both the P7M8 and PSP style P7's, and I'm with you. I almost like the P7 PSP more than the P7M8 somedays... I'll sell one, and it'll likely be the P7, as I have to have the latest/greatest, but I don't think the P7 gives up much to the P7M8 at all. The mag release on the P7M8 is prone to accidental release of the mag being so exposed, it happened to me once on the range and I didn't hear it drop with the muffs on, mag had one more round it in so it was light and I didn't notice the weight change in recoil. Pulled the trigger, nadda, promptly saw the issue at my feet. Never happens with a PSP And as for the trigger guard, I like the P7's small guard as I don't shoot with gloves too much , and the smaller trigger guard allows a better support hand index finger on the trigger guard grip as I'm so prone to do (likely to no good end, but it's 'feels right' to me).

Man, maybe I should be selling the M8...

 

[HKfan]

The M8's are getting hard to find..... where were you lucky enough to find two NIB HKFan?

'

Importing them. I know it will take a while and be a bit of a hassle, but they were cheaper than they are over here and I'm sure it will ALL be worth it.