I have an older (76) H&R break open rifle chambered in 44 mag. I have had it for some time but just got around to using it. I have fired 20 Federal Eagle 240 grain cartridges through it. It is very accurate at 50 to 75 yards. I noticed though that the cases are left very sooted up and a closer inspection revealed that each fired case is bulged just above the head/webb (not sure of right term). None of the fired cases have split but all are deformed in exactly the same way. I inspected the chamber and found that the rear portion measures very large (.470 or more ). Am I right that the sooted cases indicate that the cases are not sealing and that the gases are coming right back to the rim of the cartridge? If so does that mean that the only thing preventing high pressure gases escaping is the cartridge rim? I measured the new cases on the remaining unfired cartridges and they are all about .003 under the specified chamber measurements from my Lymans reloading manual, so I don't think it is a cartridge problem. I have come to the conclusion the the rifle has a very poorly cut chamber. Thoughts anyone ?
H&R Shikari 44 mag rifle
- Thread starter commonman
- Start date
I continue to be absolutely awed by the encyclopaedic wealth of esoteric firearms knowledge that 'sunray' brings to us.
I guess for the last forty or so years I have been indiscriminately, but now apparently mistakenly, using the same .44 Magnum ammunition willy-nilly in both revolvers and rifles. Thank goodness I can now see the light of his wisdom, and possibly just in time to save me from an awful fate, let alone the risk of damage to my willy or my nilly.
I would suggest that you are on track 'commonman' thinking the rifle has a bad chamber, and would suggest a chamber cast to confirm this. Base diameter for .44 Magnum shows as .457" in the books I have.
I guess for the last forty or so years I have been indiscriminately, but now apparently mistakenly, using the same .44 Magnum ammunition willy-nilly in both revolvers and rifles. Thank goodness I can now see the light of his wisdom, and possibly just in time to save me from an awful fate, let alone the risk of damage to my willy or my nilly.
I would suggest that you are on track 'commonman' thinking the rifle has a bad chamber, and would suggest a chamber cast to confirm this. Base diameter for .44 Magnum shows as .457" in the books I have.
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blasted_saber
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No. Its fine.
Commonman, getting back to your issue for a moment.....
I'm rather suspicious that your chamber is cut oversize. Some stretch is normal but the amount that is normal should not be readily visible to the eye. If they LOOK to be obviously stretched when compared by eye to unfired rounds then it suggests that your chamber is oversize and the brass is bulging out to excess. Just how much does a fresh round wiggle around in the chamber anyway? Do you have any other guns in .44Mag to compare the chamber slop? Or do you have some buddy's with guns in .44Mag? A comparison of this sort would be a good start.
The rim won't prevent gas coming back at you. Likely what is happening if the chamber is cut oversize is that your brass is snapping inward before the pressure is all gone and so you're seeing some sooting of the outsides of the casings just at the tail end of the pressure. But even that should not be occurring on full power .44Mag loads.
I'm rather suspicious that your chamber is cut oversize. Some stretch is normal but the amount that is normal should not be readily visible to the eye. If they LOOK to be obviously stretched when compared by eye to unfired rounds then it suggests that your chamber is oversize and the brass is bulging out to excess. Just how much does a fresh round wiggle around in the chamber anyway? Do you have any other guns in .44Mag to compare the chamber slop? Or do you have some buddy's with guns in .44Mag? A comparison of this sort would be a good start.
The rim won't prevent gas coming back at you. Likely what is happening if the chamber is cut oversize is that your brass is snapping inward before the pressure is all gone and so you're seeing some sooting of the outsides of the casings just at the tail end of the pressure. But even that should not be occurring on full power .44Mag loads.
I went back and did some more measuring (don't have access to anything to cast the chamber right now). Like I said before the cartridge base area of the chamber is .470. My inside calipers only reach 1/2" in and it is .460 there. I measured just below the case crimp on several of the fired cases and it is .458 there. A new loaded cartridge slops around a lot. I don't have any other 44 mag rifles but your suggestion sent me to get one of my hand loaded 44-40's. A reloaded (resized) 44-40 cartridge drops in and action closes without a hitch. Open the action and the 44-40 ejects without a hitch. A 44-40 fired case from a newer win 94 also slides in, closes and ejects with out any issue.
I think that may indicate that the chamber is cut oversized, you think?
Do you think that it is safe to use the rifle this way?
I wonder if it has been rechambered to .44-40?
There is no way that a .44 Magnum chamber should accept a .44-40 round.
A chamber cast would be a really good idea.
Years ago, there were issues with hollowpoint handgun ammunition. Babies and kittens were at risk, maidens fainted at mere mention of it. Hollowpoint rifle ammunition was not an issue, after all it was for hunting. Rifle ammunition was traditionally sold in 20 round boxes, pistol in 50s. So If the ammo was in 20 round boxes, it was for rifles, pistols, 50. The difference was in the bullets loaded, not in the charge, pressures. Same ammunition, except for the bullets. HSP vs SP.
There is no way that a .44 Magnum chamber should accept a .44-40 round.
A chamber cast would be a really good idea.
Years ago, there were issues with hollowpoint handgun ammunition. Babies and kittens were at risk, maidens fainted at mere mention of it. Hollowpoint rifle ammunition was not an issue, after all it was for hunting. Rifle ammunition was traditionally sold in 20 round boxes, pistol in 50s. So If the ammo was in 20 round boxes, it was for rifles, pistols, 50. The difference was in the bullets loaded, not in the charge, pressures. Same ammunition, except for the bullets. HSP vs SP.
Yeah, I'd say that if a .44-40 can drop right in that it suggests that things are a "little" sloppy.... 
The sizes you're showing sure do seem like it may be chambered in 44-40 and not .44Mag. It's not .44WCF stamped on the barrel by chance is it? Or exactly what DOES it say on the barrel for the caliber?
And until you get this figured out I'd stop putting ammo through the gun. If it turns out that it's chambered for .44-40 and rated for .44-40 pressures then putting .44Mag pressures into the chamber might not be a wise option. Besides, you're ruining perfectly good Magnum brass.....
The sizes you're showing sure do seem like it may be chambered in 44-40 and not .44Mag. It's not .44WCF stamped on the barrel by chance is it? Or exactly what DOES it say on the barrel for the caliber?
And until you get this figured out I'd stop putting ammo through the gun. If it turns out that it's chambered for .44-40 and rated for .44-40 pressures then putting .44Mag pressures into the chamber might not be a wise option. Besides, you're ruining perfectly good Magnum brass.....
So this morning I had a bit of time. I do not have the materials to make a chamber cast, but I do have the materials to fire form a case. After carefully checking all the diamentions of the chamber to be sure it would be safe I fireformed a 44-40 case in the gun marked "Shikari Model 155" and below that "- 44 REM. MAG. P - " (the P is in a circle) these markings are all that is on the barrel anywhere. The fireformed case measured within .001" of other 44-40 cases that had been fired in my Win 94, except at the neck where they were exactly .012" larger. So I came to the conclusion that the chamber has been recut with a 44-40 reamer but of course the original 44 mag neck is .012" larger.
So that braved me up, and I fired a half dozen rounds of 44-40 loaded for my SA. At about 50 ft. they all hit the paint can in roughly the center.
I think that the "REM. MAG. " will be getting ground off and a "WCF" will be stamped in on the barrel of this rifle.
Thanks for the help and giving me a direction on this. The history lesson on "pistol vs rifle rounds" was also interesting and while I must have been around at the time, that went right over my head.
So that braved me up, and I fired a half dozen rounds of 44-40 loaded for my SA. At about 50 ft. they all hit the paint can in roughly the center.
I think that the "REM. MAG. " will be getting ground off and a "WCF" will be stamped in on the barrel of this rifle.
Thanks for the help and giving me a direction on this. The history lesson on "pistol vs rifle rounds" was also interesting and while I must have been around at the time, that went right over my head.
What an odd thing for someone to do! My first thought would have been that your barrel got mis-marked. But the ballooning of the neck say .44Mag for sure.
Shooting the .44-40 stuff is going to be rather hard on the brass what with that extra stretching out at the neck. But the cost to have a smith bore out the chamber and fit a sleeve then chamber it would be prohibitive as well.
Shooting the .44-40 stuff is going to be rather hard on the brass what with that extra stretching out at the neck. But the cost to have a smith bore out the chamber and fit a sleeve then chamber it would be prohibitive as well.
I'm thinking just a bushing for the chamber area so that the proper chamber for one option or the other could be re-cut. But it would be a fussy sort of job to do any way you look at it. And given that it's a break open barrel style rifle the option of setting the barrel back a little so that the existing chamber can be recut a little further into the rifling isn't an option either.
