had my ross out today

Ah-HA!

They are starting to come out of the woodwork at last!

Cosmic: care to share your number?

Any more?

BTW, I have a long article here that I wrote on the Ross action. Anyone wants a copy, send me a real e-mail address: can't put huge attachments on dear old CGN.

Tiriaq: there were two Canadian Railroad Battalions which were Brigaded on paper before the Great War ended. Little 12-inch, 18-inch, 24-inch trench railroads, hauled hundreds of thousands of tons of arty ammo and other fun stuff as close to the Line as they could get it, under enemy artillery fire half the time. Nasty job.
 
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PLY - possible answer...

Some good reading here:

http://armyservicenumbers.########.com/

Scroll to about 2/3 down the page.

PLY might mean "Royal Marines Plymouth Division, Royal Marine Light Infantry".

The timeframe would certainly line up.
 
Mine's 4191... The bolt is PH 3324. Looking at the original Ross proofs, they have been partially polished out. I suspect the action was polished and reblued during Phase 11.
 
PLY markings

As SMELLIE mentioned, we had a bit of a coffee get together, and B.S. session, and a lot of discussion.

Things like this get me curious, so being retired and having some idle time, I got on the internet.

Not including your two, I found 14 other references to M-10 Ross rifles with the PLY markings and different serial numbers. These rifles were converted by a shop, somewhere, and the large number of them would indicate that it was not an average Bubba Basement job. Especially when the stamped serial numbers are running into the 6000 range.

Another serial number puzzle that maybe someone can solve. Number 4 Lee Enfields with a stamped serial number beginning with A L, in addition to the regular serial number. I just picked up a sporterized Long Branch No.4 Mk1* with an AL five digit serial number on it, and I have seen others with the AL serial stamped on them.

I am sure if we keep at it long enough, someone out there has the answer to this little mystery, and we can solve another little piece of history.
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Cosmic: thank you. That's THREE now. Any more?

I notice that CRB 3125 is for sale over at Collectors Source, NOT great shape, expensive but has holes in barrel same place as mine. Bubba sure gets around!

They also have one that is said to be West Coast Rangers, War Two; it has distinctive markings, s/n on LH side of chamber, single flip 200-yard peep. Interesting.
 
j-man said:
Some good reading here:

http://armyservicenumbers.########.com/

Scroll to about 2/3 down the page.

PLY might mean "Royal Marines Plymouth Division, Royal Marine Light Infantry".

The timeframe would certainly line up.
Click to expand...

i did a search of that on the national archives (UK) online.

heres the search function I used http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/royalmarines.asp?WT.hp=Royal which has some Royal Marines Service Records online.

I tried all three numbers and got hits for soldiers register numbers in the Royal Marine Light Infantry: Plymouth Division.

its a friggin long shot for sure, and i dont know much about the great war, or regiments. but heres the search hits for each of out PLY #'s

6009 - http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/...asp?Edoc_Id=8097028&queryType=1&resultcount=4

3692 - http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/...asp?Edoc_Id=8094712&queryType=1&resultcount=6

4191 - http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/...asp?Edoc_Id=8095211&queryType=1&resultcount=5

its a long shot for sure, and if we go by the enlistment dates, I think they'd be a bit old for service. maybe someone knows better?
 
cosmic said:
I've got a PLY - fully cut down, no bolt pin, no top wood. Mine also has had the rear sight replaced by a fixed peep sight. I think mine has undergone Phase 11 sporting compared to the one above.
Collectors Source has/had a similar one - they were asking a lot of bucks for it, claiming some sort of pedigree - Parks Service, Rangers?
Click to expand...

The one at Collectors Source is entitled Ross Canadian Ranger Rifle, NR2998

http://www.collectorssource.com/category.asp?catid=11

I had that one at one point. Another member in NS had it's twin.

They have a fixed aperture sight and a s/n on the receiver ring.

But, they do not have PLY on them. That's the first I've seen of PLY.

A member on here told me Alberta Lands and Forests (I think it was) sold them (the type Collectors Source has) off in an auction a while back.



One thing that bothers me about the pics of the PLY marking is how sloppily they were stamped. I'm not picturing a British or Canadian military armourer doing that but who knows?
 
Hmmm... Mine is poorly stamped, same font and size as Gallens... My rifle is very similar to the Collectors Source Rifle except that the pistol grip has not been recontoured. I'm skeptical about the pedigree - whoever did the last refurb did a very modest job - nowhere near the quality of some other sporter conversions I have - such as the Target sporters...
Looking at Gallens rifle, it seems to have the original bluing. I've seen quite a few rifles like this over the years - cut down with the top handguard. I would think this may have been the original govt refurb - particularly to get the barrel length and weight down. Mine has likely endured a second sporting by private concerns.
 
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cosmic said:
Hmmm... Mine is poorly stamped... My rifle is very similar to the Collectors Source Rifle except that the pistol grip has not been recontoured. I'm skeptical about the pedigree - whoever did the last refurb did a very modest job - nowhere near the quality of some other sporter conversions I have - such as the Target sporters...
Click to expand...

If for example the govt. had a bunch of surplus Rosses gathering dust, and a govt. department like Lands and Forests needed some rifles, perhaps they let a contract to someone to modify a run of them?
Such wouldn't be high end work, just functional and safe and presumably uniform.
 
Stamping on mine, both PLY and the number, are quite neatly done: spaced evenly, no staggering, quite good for individual stamps, all in all.

Originally, this is what got me thinking that the PLY had to be military.
 
Rack numbers

j-man said:
Maybe not individual service numbers, but perhaps the PLY #### is a regimental rack number.

???
Click to expand...

Possible, but I don't think so. Not on the barrel or receiver ring. Rack and regimental numbers are usually stamped on the wood, or on the top of the butt plate (eg. Lee Metfords, etc) where there is enough room.

That way, if the rifle is transferred to another Regiment, Service, or Unit, then it is easy to cross out the old rack number, and stamp in a new one. Witness many old butt stocks with LOTS of numbers on them. There is a picture of a Ross on Milsurps.com that has so many that it might be difficult to find space for another one.

For Gallen 270: Nice try on the Royal Marine Regimental Numbers look up. These old rifles are interesting, especially the markings. It looks like you got bit by the Historical Curiosity Bug, and the infection is now spreading throughout your system. There is no cure, so you are going to have to live with it. It's like a Treasure Hunt......welcome aboard.

It's an interesting theory, but knowing the Military System a bit, I can not really see an Individuals personal Serial number stamped onto a weapon. There is already a serial number on issued weapons, and it is much easier to record the weapon's number on a soldier's records. Weapons, and most certainly rifles, do get moved around a bit, from one unit to another, or even one Service to another Service. This would be a Quartermaster's nightmare.

:)I might be wrong. In fact, once I thought I was wrong, but I was mistaken.:)

Good work. Keep it up. It is about time we solve this little mystery, for future Ross owners of PLY rifles. Someone out there knows the answer.
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holy crap! another clue :eek:

I emailed the Royal Marine museum


From: Archive
Sent: 28 June 2010 15:05
To: 'RMM Website'
Subject: RE: Research Enquiry from the RMM website



Dear Sir



Ross rifles were used by the Royal Marines Light Infantry during 1914-18, and the PLY would indicate ‘Plymouth Division’ (the others being CH for Chatham and PO for Portsmouth). The Royal Marine Artillery were sometimes issued with Japanese Askari’s when Lee-Enfields were not available. By 1917 most RM units had Enfields with the possible exclusion of a few sea service ships detachments.





Mr M G Little



RM Museum Archivist & Librarian
im sending another email for more info as I type this.
 
Wow! Very cool Gallen!

British service marks.

Can you ask him about CRB?


gallen270 said:
holy crap! another clue :eek:

I emailed the Royal Marine museum


From: Archive
Sent: 28 June 2010 15:05
To: 'RMM Website'
Subject: RE: Research Enquiry from the RMM website



Dear Sir



Ross rifles were used by the Royal Marines Light Infantry during 1914-18, and the PLY would indicate ‘Plymouth Division’ (the others being CH for Chatham and PO for Portsmouth). The Royal Marine Artillery were sometimes issued with Japanese Askari’s when Lee-Enfields were not available. By 1917 most RM units had Enfields with the possible exclusion of a few sea service ships detachments.





Mr M G Little



RM Museum Archivist & Librarian
im sending another email for more info as I type this.
Click to expand...
 
PLY markings

Way to go, Gallen270

You have found the treasure. When we started this a couple of days ago, it was a mystery. Now, you have probably solved that mystery, and we have a plausable explanation of those markings. Excellent detective work.

I knew if we threw enough people and effort into it, we could come up with something. You get one "attaboy", and the recognition and satisfaction that you were the one to solve the puzzle, and add a bit to the history of the Ross Rifle.

Now, I have another little task for you. Would you please e-mail the Royal Marine Historian, and ask if the letters PHAB on a Ross rifle means anything to him? Smellie and I have some ideas, and this is probably complementary with the PLY markings.

Finding the information is almost as exciting as shooting it, isn't it? Welcome to the Historical side of Gun Collecting.
.

.
 
Now things are beginning to fall into some kind of line.

British rifles were, of course, marked on the metal, while Canada had them marked on the wood. Rosses, of course, had no "disc, marking, butt" but they had to be marked somewhere, so right on that otherwise-blank part of the receiver ring would seem a good location. When they went into British Service, it only makes sense that they would be numbered on the metal... and right under the formation stamp would seem a likely spot. It's logical, anyway.

And now that letter from the Royal Marine Museum. Ah, that letter! Great work, Gallen!

A large force such as the Royal Marines also would demand quite a few rifles, clearing up the mystery of the serial numbers, which indicate a spread, just in the 3 rifles here, of more than 2,300 rifles. Apart from me, there likely aren't too many people who would want 2300-odd identical Ross Rifles, so we must be looking for a military formation and this one seems a likely bet. Just the list of British warships by name alone in that War runs to pages and pages and pages... and every one of them would have had some sort of Royal Marine presence, one would have thought. There certainly is ample room for 6009 rifle, more of less, much less the 2315 which we are pretty certain existed.

As to ragged stampings, it was wartime, manpower was short, and I can hardly think of a much more onerous job than stamping serial numbers on several truckloads of rifles and doing it RIGHT NOW, YOU UGLY LITTLE MAGGOT! (This roared by the RSM, of course, as he calmly eats another baby.) I would think that very tired men, working at top speed hour after hour, just might get their stamps a bit out of alignment. Today, 95 years later, it is proof to us of how overworked and tired they really were in those desperate days.

Add to this friend Buffdog's all-night Internet research, turning up another 14 references, and we are beginning to have some kind of idea as to the survival rates of these historic old pieces. All we need right now is a decent U-boat so our rifles have something to sneer at as they sit on their racks, quietly mulling over the 'good old days' when they were policing the sea-lanes of the world.

Makes one think.

A suggestion from Buffdog (via telephone, just in the last few minutes) now has me checking Naval possibilities regarding the matched pair of 'stripped' Rosses I have here, prominently stamped PHAB 1 and PHAB 2 respectively. Harbour Artillery?

Find out!

Gotta go!
 
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