Handgun Holster, what are they used for? (in canada)

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I never once implied there were no rules - I just don't think the average Canadian shooter is so backward, so inherently defective, that they can't comprehend them without some retired guy screwing them over for the cost of a half-assed wanna be "holster course" that isn't even recognized at the next gun club, never mind recognized in the next country. Frankly I'm a strong believer in taking courses, I've taken the odd one myself - but generally I want to see more qualification from my instructor than "Old Walt's the guy who runs the holster course, you can't use a holster until he says you can". In fact, I want to see more qualification than "old Walt was a cop for 30 years". With no curriculum, and no standards for either course material or instructors, these courses are one of 2 things: a total waste of time, enacted only to build one more hurdle between newcomers to shooting and the sport, or a financial grab, one more way to drain the new shooters pocket. With regard to the (reverential pause) Black Badge - it's a course about shooting one type of pistol game, the majority of the course (according to this guy I used to know who was pretty good at it - Murray someone or other) is about the rules of the game. The rules are quite restrictive, due to the sport in question being A) international and B) run by a committee. It's not a game I play, frankly not interested. That I'm not interested in shooting IPSC does not mean that I don't want to know how to use a pistol, properly and as intended. So, if it's OK with your highness, I'll just go over here and use my gun, safely, in my own way - or is being left alone to do so, too much for your highness to bear.

Murray Gardner

At POCO its 250$ each for the IPSC course, Murray charges the same and does his in Mission I think?
I've taken courses with Murray before and he knows his stuff and he's not an ego douche.
I'm not sure if you already have a black badge if you need to take the holster course at POCO, but then you need to take the RUC course which is another fee.
 
Murray is an old friend. He is very knowledgeable and experienced both here and internationally. You might call him the 'Godfather' of IPSC in Canada. If you've taken training from "Doc", you've been trained by one of the best. Having said that, ANY of the Black Badge instructors is just as capable as Murray, and some charge less for their services .... ;>) Murray's contention has always been that you get what you pay for.

The BB course does place a lot of emphasis on the 'rules' as they don't want you to get your azz chucked out of the game. Most of them are around safety concerns, and there is no appeal, no "Yah, but" about it. Money spent on the course is money well spent. You will learn something IF you have an open mind. It is still the best handgun training readily available to most at a reasonable cost.

I repeat - no one is compelling anyone to do what they don't what to do with regard to holster training.
 
I took a course with Murray a while back. It was an introductory type course and he made fun of people who rack the slide overhand instead of sling shot.
I don't remember if anyone was actually doing that........... I'm pretty sure he just mentioned it while he was explaining how to run a pistol.

I thought that was a bit ignorant as both techniques have their place but he was happy to Poo Poo it as Hollywood B.S.

He also Poo Pooed Norinco's but was happy to sell cheap Chinese trigger locks after the class.

He did complement me on one of my pistols which happened to be a semi custom Norinco with a kimber .22lr conversion.

I enjoyed the course more then the cheap Chinese trigger lock... I guess I got what I paid for in that regard. :)
 
I took a course with Murray a while back. It was an introductory type course and he made fun of people who rack the slide overhand instead of sling shot.
I don't remember if anyone was actually doing that........... I'm pretty sure he just mentioned it while he was explaining how to run a pistol.

I thought that was a bit ignorant as both techniques have their place but he was happy to Poo Poo it as Hollywood B.S.



He also Poo Pooed Norinco's but was happy to sell cheap Chinese trigger locks after the class.

He did complement me on one of my pistols which happened to be a semi custom Norinco with a kimber .22lr conversion.

I enjoyed the course more then the cheap Chinese trigger lock... I guess I got what I paid for in that regard. :)

Well so much for ole Murray.

I learned to over hand from Travis Haley and Chris Costa (DVD lessons) who charge a bazillion dollars an hour to transfer their knowledge. Besides I use the overhand almost exclusively since it makes so much sense. ;)

The only time I sling shot is when "showing clear" but that's another story right?
 
We're getting off topic here ....

The current Israeli Mossad-inspired method of holding the gun sideways (ejection port up for a right hander) to chamber seems to be catching on with the professional gun handlers, from what I see in the tacticool magazines, the 'how-to' manuals of the self-taught. This isn't a bad method to "show clear" either as it encourages you to keep your trigger finger alongside the frame - where it can be seen by the RO.

If I understand what is meant by "overhand", it is probably being discouraged to keep one's hand and arm away from the ejection port in the event of an AD. If this is not correct, 'splain.
 
I took a course with Murray a while back. It was an introductory type course and he made fun of people who rack the slide overhand instead of sling shot.
I don't remember if anyone was actually doing that........... I'm pretty sure he just mentioned it while he was explaining how to run a pistol.

I thought that was a bit ignorant as both techniques have their place but he was happy to Poo Poo it as Hollywood B.S.

He also Poo Pooed Norinco's but was happy to sell cheap Chinese trigger locks after the class.

He did complement me on one of my pistols which happened to be a semi custom Norinco with a kimber .22lr conversion.

I enjoyed the course more then the cheap Chinese trigger lock... I guess I got what I paid for in that regard. :)

I used overhand with him during my private course and he didn't mention anything. No trigger locks for sale either. But he did say my sig p226 had crappy sights, a bad grip for my hand and a horrible trigger. At first it shocked me to hear that since I was bred to believe sig meant top quality in everything they produce, but after shooting my cz orange I understand fully why he said that.
 
We're getting off topic here ....

The current Israeli Mossad-inspired method of holding the gun sideways (ejection port up for a right hander) to chamber seems to be catching on with the professional gun handlers, from what I see in the tacticool magazines, the 'how-to' manuals of the self-taught. This isn't a bad method to "show clear" either as it encourages you to keep your trigger finger alongside the frame - where it can be seen by the RO.

If I understand what is meant by "overhand", it is probably being discouraged to keep one's hand and arm away from the ejection port in the event of an AD. If this is not correct, 'splain.

Me thinks that different people teach different techniques for different reasons. The DVD series featuring Haley and Costa was done before they both split from Magpul. They gave several reasons for the over hand method. One was that they recommend that you adopt the fewest variations in your techniques. So the overhand is also used to clear malfunctions like vertical stove pipes. In a similar move, your lower palm is used to wack the end of the slide to encourage a stubborn feed. The other recommendation was to use techniques that avoid fine motor control skills under stress. A third reason is that it keeps the gun up and in your "work space" with your eyes still on the threat. That's also why you do your reloads high and close to eye level. I notice that when many people sling shot, they drop the gun lower and their eyes follow. As I said, I always lower the gun and sling shot when showing clear as both the RO and I can see the chamber. However that's not a good idea when the bad guys are still coming with your blood in their eyes.

The way I learned from all of this is to quickly grasp the slide and move the hand to the chest rather violently. In fact one of the memory tricks is to feel the thump of your fist hitting your chest. My trigger finger knows where its home is because I index on the slide stop. It has become so ingrained that I do the same thing when picking up my electric drill or anything else with a pistol grip like my Lady Clairol hair drier.:rolleyes:
 
We're getting off topic here ....

The current Israeli Mossad-inspired method of holding the gun sideways (ejection port up for a right hander) to chamber seems to be catching on with the professional gun handlers, from what I see in the tacticool magazines, the 'how-to' manuals of the self-taught. This isn't a bad method to "show clear" either as it encourages you to keep your trigger finger alongside the frame - where it can be seen by the RO.

If I understand what is meant by "overhand", it is probably being discouraged to keep one's hand and arm away from the ejection port in the event of an AD. If this is not correct, 'splain.

What I'm calling overhand (might not be correct?) is when you take your support hand and place it over the top of your slide knuckles up and then manipulate the slide. This technique works well when the pistol is close to the body.

What I'm calling slingshot involves holding the pistol more at arms length away from the body and then using the support hand to draw the slide by pinching the rear of the slide and pulling it straight back and releasing like a sling shot.
 
Yup, it's all a conspiracy to loot the pockets of new shooters. Very astute of you to realize that; except that our club does not charge for the service. We impose the "hurdle" free of charge.

Like I said earlier (twice), there is an element that (a) resents being told that they don't know it all or (b) resents having to prove it that they do, regardless of the presenter.
I take it that if the "guy who runs the holster course" was cute young thang in a thong (and I know a few who could fit that description), it would be more acceptable than if it came from "some retired guy" who could kick your ass all over the range?

Again - like I said (at least twice), you have the option of non-compliance. The clubs that require the qualification have the right of exclusion. Live with it.

This dead horse really refuses to die. I'm actually getting used to the stink ..... ;>)

It is irrelevant who interferes with someone enjoying themselves safely - it's the interference I abhor. As far as kicking my ass goes, you don't know me, and frankly no I don't think I should have to prove that I can safely remove a pistol from a holster. Maybe by simply watching from a distance, you could put your mind at ease? Frankly none of the pros I've shot with have ever had any issue with my draw, or my positional shooting, or my shooting on the move, or my safety in the stack.

PS - even the Israeli high speed guys don't use the "Israeli Method" anymore.
 
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What I'm calling overhand (might not be correct?) is when you take your support hand and place it over the top of your slide knuckles up and then manipulate the slide. This technique works well when the pistol is close to the body.

What I'm calling slingshot involves holding the pistol more at arms length away from the body and then using the support hand to draw the slide by pinching the rear of the slide and pulling it straight back and releasing like a sling shot.

The argument against the "sling shot" is that your thumb and finger grip is more likely to slip and unless I'm mistaken, a lot of shooters lower the gun. When you over hand you are more likely to keep those nasty paper targets in view. Since most of us aren't fighting off bad guys with our hands covered in blood I suppose it doesn't matter too much. The other benefit of the overhand is that it uses bigger muscles and is easier for people who find racking the slide a physical challenge.

As an exercise, try a quick "tap rack bang" both ways and see which is faster and more sure.
 
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What I'm talking about and have a serious distaste for is when a club requires a non-competing individual to prove their skill with a holster. Yes, they may have agreed with those club rules and I also understand that, but at the core I have a problem with a club making such rules for casual shooters. It discourages people from expanding their interest in the sport.

A little late to the thread .. Our club Exec and BOD are going through this discussion right now and are just as split as the people in this thread. Many common things being said .. no one wants to put up hurdles and impose non-legal requirements on non-competitive members etc. etc. There is general consensus though, in that using a holster (drawing and firing, not just carrying an empty firearm) actually does require a little training .. which is why IPSC, IDPA, CAS, SAS etc. all cover it at some point.

So ... how does a club deal with an individual that has no training, is not part of a discipline that offers it, and is using a holster to draw and shoot in an unsafe manor? If there are no "rules" then there is no way to deal with this as the individual can simply say .. "There are no rules saying I can't use my holster." Yes, as a safety issue it must be dealt with at the time but if there is a push back .. the only recourse seems to be expulsion from the club. Kicking someone out for a safety concern but not acknowledging the issue on a level that means offering a "holster course" or similar training to cover the basic safety concerns leaves the individual with no choice but to spend $$ and join one of the holster using disciplines or skip using a holster. Would this not discourage people from expanding their interest in the sport?

Many people in our club feel a free course offering basic holster training is the way to go (and I agree). This way the safety concern is covered and individuals can use their holsters as they please. Will the "holster course" (what ever the club decides that to consist of) be 100% effective in stopping any and all accidents? of course not but the feeling is due diligence on the clubs part has been met. So, other than outright banning the use of holsters for anyone not involved with a discipline that covers holster use dictate that "some" form of training be offered by the club for those that want to use a holster but don't want to join one of those disciplines?

We did a quick check with a few clubs in BC that allow holster use and they ONLY allow it under very specific guidelines and there are indeed rules to be followed. Often holster use is restricted to ONLY during club events and while engaged in the event AND at that specific area (you can't wander around with your holstered firearm). I find this very restrictive and would gladly take a "holster course" in what ever form it's offered if it meant I could carry any where and everywhere on our club property.

Port Coquitlam & District Hunting & Fishing Club allows members to carry unloaded firearms in a holster when involved in practice and actual competitions. The holster-carry has to be in the immediate range area where the activity takes place. Individual practice is permitted on designated ranges on or near designated shooting positions. The club does not allow members to wander around carrying a holstered firearm (parking lot, clubhouse, etc).

Ridgedale Rod and Gun Club allows members to deploy firearms from a holster when they are involved in practice or competitions but the member must be near his/her assigned shooting position or under the direction of a range master for that type of activity. Independent practice rules allow holster-use but the member must be on or near their designated shooting position.

Mission Rod & Gun Club holster use is approved for designated ranges or activity centers (Cowboy Action bays) during practice or competitions. Members must be on the assigned range or using a designated holster use shooting position.
In all cases, members are permitted to use holsters with pistols either unloaded or fully-prepared with a round in the chamber (as in Police Pistol Combat competitions). Members are not permitted to wander around the club property with a firearm in a holster, loaded or not.

Granted this was a quick look at a very small number of clubs, but it seems evident that once "holster use" is allowed, then guidelines and rules come into play. If a club has no policy on holster use outside of the specific disciplines that use holsters, then the club has little recourse in dealing with problems arising from "general holster use" other than the heavy hand of expulsion from the club for safety reasons.

For the record, this is the response I got from the Firearms Officer in Prince George when I discussed this issue with him.

"The Canadian Firearms Program does NOT endorse any holster course nor do we endorse/reject the use of holsters on ranges. Ranges are responsible for the safety of all persons on range property.

Ron Hardy
Firearms Officer
British Columbia & Yukon

Canada Firearms Program | Programme canadien des arms a feu
Royal Canadian Mounted Police | Gendarmerie royale du Canada"

So .. it's up to the clubs to decide what, if anything, they want to do around holster use. Smaller more remote clubs are not likely to worry, larger and busier clubs will. At the end of the day, you make the choice and either comply with existing rules, accept newly imposed rules, or move on to a different club. Simply ignoring the potential for problems is not going to go over well in court if there is an accident and your club is sued. Wouldn't it better to be able to tell the Judge we did our due diligence to the best of our ability rather than .. ya, we talked about a holster course to give untrained individuals the basics but didn't want to burden them or discourage them from expanding their interest in the sport?
 
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I just had a very scary mental image flash by. Gezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz:sok2

I'm not going to look for it, but there is a post in the OST section of the forums where they were giving away a holster. You had to post a picture of why you needed the holster so bad. Well one member posted the picture of your horrifying mental image. While your image is imaginary, I am forever scarred by hairy fat butt cheeks.
 
Thank you Mr. TPK. It's good to hear from a club perspective. Overdoing the safety aspect of club shooting, at least in the opinion of some, might be a PITA. However, in some provinces, just one incident, just one bit of carelessness or just one complaint from a neighbor who claims to find an errant bullet on his property and the club gets closed or subject to stringent requirements and great expense. Want details? Ask anyone in the southern Ontario area.

An "all about us" rather than an "all about me" attitude is a necessity when clubs at by extension shooters are constantly under the gun; pun intended.
 
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