Handgun storage

grinder08 said:
In my opinion a filing cabinet typically would not meet the "difficult to break into rule" pretty simple to bend a cabinet draw and get inside or cut/smash a hole in the side. If someone broke into the cabinet you would have a hard time arguing it was OK.
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This is a really good post imo.

And personally I put trigger locks on my pistol because I have 2 curious little kids running around the house... but you don't have to by law...

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/963639-Safe-Storage-for-Dummies-%28With-Pics%29?highlight=safe
 
shawn said:
You must think that gun cases are a no go then too right? There is no way its harder to break into a gun case than a filing cabinet.

Shawn
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For storage of a restricted I do not believe a gun case meets the law. Acceptable for transport but not storage. I would say the odds of a police officer thinking it is adequate would be pretty low. For a non-restricted any type of locking system is acceptable as I understand it. Again subject to the opinion of the police officer at the time. Remember as far as firearms are concerned you are guilty until proven innocent. Not saying it is right just that I don't want the hastle and cost of having to go to court.
 
XSlor said:
This is a really good post imo.

And personally I put trigger locks on my pistol because I have 2 curious little kids running around the house... but you don't have to by law...

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/963639-Safe-Storage-for-Dummies-%28With-Pics%29?highlight=safe
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Mainly I tend to go one step above the legal requirement for two reasons. People make mistakes. I might forget to turn the handles on the safe or I forget to turn the tumblers on the trigger locks. I then still have a secure system and if I can show the police I am really trying they are more likely to give the benefit of the doubt.
 
grinder08 said:
For storage of a restricted I do not believe a gun case meets the law. Acceptable for transport but not storage. I would say the odds of a police officer thinking it is adequate would be pretty low. For a non-restricted any type of locking system is acceptable as I understand it. Again subject to the opinion of the police officer at the time. Remember as far as firearms are concerned you are guilty until proven innocent. Not saying it is right just that I don't want the hastle and cost of having to go to court.
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I believe it does as long as the firearm is trigger locked. I believe it is a "container" as referred to in the regs. There are 1,000's of Stack-On gun cabinets in use and they are certainly no more difficult to break into than a locked filing cabinet, desk drawer, or Piano hard case.
 
It has to be a metal case. If you click on the link I provided, it shows that you can use an ammo can as a gun safe if you wanted or even a school locker... if you have a plastic case though, your restricted needs a trigger lock
 
XSlor said:
It has to be a metal case. If you click on the link I provided, it shows that you can use an ammo can as a gun safe if you wanted or even a school locker... if you have a plastic case though, your restricted needs a trigger lock
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The link you provided only refers to one provincial court case in Ontario. AFAIK that does not set precedent and has no effect on what another judge might find.

I think you are walking close to the line here. The requirements are vague enough that you might or might not get off depending on the judge. Do you really want the expense and hassle just to (maybe) prove a point?

I would only feel comfortable storing a restricted without a trigger lock if it was stored in something that was marketed and sold as a "safe" or "security safe" not as a "cabinet" or "security cabinet" or "gun cabinet".
 
grinder08 said:
For storage of a restricted I do not believe a gun case meets the law. Acceptable for transport but not storage. I would say the odds of a police officer thinking it is adequate would be pretty low. For a non-restricted any type of locking system is acceptable as I understand it. Again subject to the opinion of the police officer at the time. Remember as far as firearms are concerned you are guilty until proven innocent. Not saying it is right just that I don't want the hastle and cost of having to go to court.
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Which is it a gun case is legal or not ? You cant have it both ways:

11. An individual may transport a restricted firearm only if

(a) it is unloaded;
(b) it is rendered inoperable by means of a secure locking device;
(c) it is in a locked container that is made of an opaque material and is of such strength, construction and nature that it cannot readily be broken open or into or accidentally opened during transportation; and
(d) if it is in a container described in paragraph (c) that is in an unattended vehicle,
(i) when the vehicle is equipped with a trunk or similar compartment that can be securely locked, the container is in that trunk or compartment and the trunk or compartment is securely locked, and
(ii) when the vehicle is not equipped with a trunk or similar compartment that can be securely locked, the vehicle, or the part of the vehicle that contains the container, is securely locked and the container is not visible from outside the vehicle.
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6. An individual may store a restricted firearm only if

(a) it is unloaded;
(b) it is
(i) rendered inoperable by means of a secure locking device and stored in a container, receptacle or room that is kept securely locked and that is constructed so that it cannot readily be broken open or into, or
(ii) stored in a vault, safe or room that has been specifically constructed or modified for the secure storage of restricted firearms and that is kept securely locked; and
(c) it is not readily accessible to ammunition, unless the ammunition is stored, together with or separately from the firearm, in
(i) a container or receptacle that is kept securely locked and that is constructed so that it cannot readily be broken open or into, or
(ii) a vault, safe or room that has been specifically constructed or modified for the secure storage of restricted firearms and that is kept securely locked.
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http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-98-209/page-3.html#h-4

The law doesn't agree with you. There is no differentiation between the containers for transport vs storage.

Shawn
 
XSlor said:
This is a really good post imo.

And personally I put trigger locks on my pistol because I have 2 curious little kids running around the house... but you don't have to by law...

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/963639-Safe-Storage-for-Dummies-%28With-Pics%29?highlight=safe
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Likewise. I have two curious and resourceful boys in the house. My pistols are locked in 300lb fire safe, each inside a double padlocked pelican case, and each with a trigger guard.

This has nothing to do with the law. It's just common sense.
 
"(ii) stored in a vault, safe or room that has been specifically constructed or modified for the secure storage of restricted firearms and that is kept securely locked;"

I assume that this portion of the law should be interpreted as the safe being used needs to be advertised for the storage of firearms in order to be able to keep a restricted in it with no trigger lock?

Reason I ask is that I'm looking at getting a fire proof safe for my important documents, but despite carrying ETL drop certifications and UL fire rating, it's not advertised as being specifically for firearms.
 
whiteoutjeeper said:
"(ii) stored in a vault, safe or room that has been specifically constructed or modified for the secure storage of restricted firearms and that is kept securely locked;"

I assume that this portion of the law should be interpreted as the safe being used needs to be advertised for the storage of firearms in order to be able to keep a restricted in it with no trigger lock?

Reason I ask is that I'm looking at getting a fire proof safe for my important documents, but despite carrying ETL drop certifications and UL fire rating, it's not advertised as being specifically for firearms.
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Good point. I guess it depends on whether ...."specifically constructed or modified for the secure storage of restricted firearms and that is kept securely locked" refers to just the "room" or to the "vault,safe" as well. I have always taken that line about "specifically constructed or modified" to refer to the "room". I think it is the "or' between vault and room that matters here. Because of that i would take what comes after room to apply to the room only.

IE You can store them in....1. a safe
2. a vault
3. OR a room that has been specifically constructed or modified for the secure storage of restricted firearms and that is kept securely locked
 
This reminds me of Jewish scholars arguing about what the Tanakh (hebrew bible) is really saying.
They made the laws so they could twist them in their favours if need be, don't try to find the exact meaning of it, it doesn't exist
 
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whiteoutjeeper said:
"(ii) stored in a vault, safe or room that has been specifically constructed or modified for the secure storage of restricted firearms and that is kept securely locked;"

I assume that this portion of the law should be interpreted as the safe being used needs to be advertised for the storage of firearms in order to be able to keep a restricted in it with no trigger lock?

Reason I ask is that I'm looking at getting a fire proof safe for my important documents, but despite carrying ETL drop certifications and UL fire rating, it's not advertised as being specifically for firearms.
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There is no legal description of a safe in Canadian law. It doesn't have to be advertised for firearms, its doesn't need to be made by a firearms company. When something is not defined in the legislation the dictionary definition is used. Which basically says if its metal its good to go, it has already seen court in Ont and a school locker was deemed to be a "safe" for the purposes of the firearms act.

The issue you might run into with fires afes is they are typically not made of metal and most dictionaries define safes as being metal.

Shawn
 
shawn said:
There is no legal description of a safe in Canadian law. It doesn't have to be advertised for firearms, its doesn't need to be made by a firearms company. When something is not defined in the legislation the dictionary definition is used. Which basically says if its metal its good to go, it has already seen court in Ont and a school locker was deemed to be a "safe" for the purposes of the firearms act.

The issue you might run into with fires afes is they are typically not made of metal and most dictionaries define safes as being metal.

Shawn
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The reality is that a "gun room" is probably the easiest thing to access... let's face it... no one has vault doors in their house... it's not exactly hard to kick in a door... It would harder to get into a locked pelican case than kicking in a door...

I believe it was my gun instructor who said that guns are to be locked up so that they aren't a go to "weapon" in case of an emergency, like a break in or something...

It's not a law designed to prevent firearms to get stolen... just make it harder to access in an emergency. Grab the bat over a 1911 type deal... though you could just have one of those cool biometric safes sitting beside your bed... so I don't know... it kind of make sense, because no safe is truly secure... if you have your transport case with a gun and trigger lock sitting in your closet... that's really easy to make disappear and trigger locks are pretty easy to remove...
 
sailor723 said:
I believe it does as long as the firearm is trigger locked. I believe it is a "container" as referred to in the regs. There are 1,000's of Stack-On gun cabinets in use and they are certainly no more difficult to break into than a locked filing cabinet, desk drawer, or Piano hard case.
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Sure they are. The Stack-on cabinets have metal bars that, when the cabinet is locked, slide up into the frame. There's one at the top, one at the bottom and one on the side next to to the lock. You can lever the thing open with a crowbar I guess, but you'd have to do it in three separate places and it would be a huge PITA to crank open the top part after cranking open the bottom part, or vice-versa.

They're not fool-proof, but they're specifically designed to hold firearms and are significantly more secure than a regular filing cabinet or school locker or whatever. They meet the California storage gun storage standards (much more specific than ours, BTW) and are made of deceptively thin but tough steel. I had to drill some new holes in mine to mount interior shelves and it required a fair bit of elbow grease to get my power drill to through it.
 
HeavyTread said:
Sure they are. The Stack-on cabinets have metal bars that, when the cabinet is locked, slide up into the frame. There's one at the top, one at the bottom and one on the side next to to the lock. You can lever the thing open with a crowbar I guess, but you'd have to do it in three separate places and it would be a huge PITA to crank open the top part after cranking open the bottom part, or vice-versa.

They're not fool-proof, but they're specifically designed to hold firearms and are significantly more secure than a regular filing cabinet or school locker or whatever. They meet the California storage gun storage standards (much more specific than ours, BTW) and are made of deceptively thin but tough steel. I had to drill some new holes in mine to mount interior shelves and it required a fair bit of elbow grease to get my power drill to through it.
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Why don't you compare Stack On Cabinet to a Stack On safe and decide which one is better?
 
I have a finger print lock box from Stack-on, its small and I hid it in the bottom of a cabinet then bolted it to the ground from inside the box. The most secure feeling I get from it, is the fact its hidden in a cabinet in the corner at the back. So first someone would have to find it, and I bury it behind a bunch of crap. Then you would either have to rip it out of the cabinet/ground to work on it, because there really is no room in the cabinet to break it open.

The lock box/safe itself it not that confidence inspiring, I am no thief but I could break into this thing easily with a crow bar.

And those cabinets I saw at the store are even worse, they are made so light gauge its laughable. If someone had problems drilling holes in that thin of a sheet metal that is only speaking to how ####ty your drill bits must be. As again I am no thief but if I really wanted into one of those cabinets Id barely break a sweat getting in. Having lost the keys to locks a few times in the past, its also very likely these simple small locks on these boxs and cabinets could be easily drilled out to open them.

Sooner or later as my collection grows I am going to be buying a used safe, a real one from a business. There are used safe companies here in Toronto that sell used ones from companies that have gone out of business or upgraded to bigger. You can get a really solid safe for a good price, and they are real safes not some tin metal lock box.
 
coldestcanuck said:
Why don't you compare Stack On Cabinet to a Stack On safe and decide which one is better?
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Define 'better'. Harder to break into? Higher level of protection against fire, etc? Of course, the safes are better in that sense.

For me, the cabinets are better because they meet my needs without requiring me to spend more money :)
 
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