Did you shoot a .7 inch group with factory ammo the same day you shot these handloads? First things first, take the action out of the stock and make sure everything is clean and dry (no oil in the bedding). Put the action back into the stock a tighten the action screws. Clean the barrel with a good cooper solvent (I like foaming bore cleaners myself). Make sure all your bases and rings are tight, even if it means taking the scope off the rifle to reach the screws. Shoot a few groups with factory ammo to give you a starting point for your accuracy test.
handloading disappointment
- Thread starter Onagoth
- Start date
Just a few thoughts. You shot a great group with factory ammo. Therefore,
1) You are a good shot on the bench, so no use of anyone telling you how to shoot.
2) Your rifle is in fine form.
3) Such things as OAL, exact weights of powder, fire forming the cases, etc, etc, will have nothing to do with the rifle not stabilizing the bullet you are using.
4) You are using a good powder, so no use changing to another, which would not improve the huge groups.
5) Whether the bullet is seated near, into, or far from the lands, has no practical effect on 8" groups.
6) The bullet is what is making the holes far apart on the target, therefore lets look at the bullet.
7) The bullet, par se, is OK, so it must be something to do with the way it is fired. The culprit is almost certainly in the way it is stabilized, or rather, likely not stabilized. It needs more rpm as it goes down the barrel. It may not ever stabilize in the twist your rifle has, and lighter/shorter bullets are likely needed. However, if it is safe to increase the velocity, this is the only thing you could do, that might help.
One other observation is that factory ammunition is darn good! All these people that think they have to reload to get good ammo, are away out on a limb. In many cases they will be hard pressed to equal good commercial ammo.
1) You are a good shot on the bench, so no use of anyone telling you how to shoot.
2) Your rifle is in fine form.
3) Such things as OAL, exact weights of powder, fire forming the cases, etc, etc, will have nothing to do with the rifle not stabilizing the bullet you are using.
4) You are using a good powder, so no use changing to another, which would not improve the huge groups.
5) Whether the bullet is seated near, into, or far from the lands, has no practical effect on 8" groups.
6) The bullet is what is making the holes far apart on the target, therefore lets look at the bullet.
7) The bullet, par se, is OK, so it must be something to do with the way it is fired. The culprit is almost certainly in the way it is stabilized, or rather, likely not stabilized. It needs more rpm as it goes down the barrel. It may not ever stabilize in the twist your rifle has, and lighter/shorter bullets are likely needed. However, if it is safe to increase the velocity, this is the only thing you could do, that might help.
One other observation is that factory ammunition is darn good! All these people that think they have to reload to get good ammo, are away out on a limb. In many cases they will be hard pressed to equal good commercial ammo.
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haha how often i forget this simple truth. if you read my sig at the bottom of my posts, you will see the "you cannot polish a turd" .. If a bullet shoots out at 8" groups from your rifle, drop that bullet .. period! YOU CANNOT POLISH A TURD
If I had a rifle that shot .70" with factory ammo I wouldn't reload for it...what are you trying to gain?
You asked if using more powder could make much of a difference given the group was so big. Without a chony to give you velocity, you don't realy lnow where your load is. It may be a long way from full velocity - or it might already be plenty fast.
I have been in the situation you are in, and I suspect most others trying to help have been too.
I am guessing the twist is too slow. You can try shgooting hotter loads in .5 gr increments. You will quickly see if the groups shrink. Watch for pressure. Stop as soon as the bolt sticks or a primer flattens. And I don't mean stop at the end of that string, I mean Right NOW!
The group might very well shrink quickly because your bullet holes are round. They are not tumbling. Another 50 or 100 fps will add a lot more RPM and maybe solve the problem. A good learning experience, anyway. Many loading experiments just prove what does not work. This is OK so long as you maintain a loading log.
At the same time I loaded the 55s I would load some 50's with the same powder charges (you can throw all the charges at the same time). If the 50s work a lot better then you can be pretty sure it is a twist issue.
I have been in the situation you are in, and I suspect most others trying to help have been too.
I am guessing the twist is too slow. You can try shgooting hotter loads in .5 gr increments. You will quickly see if the groups shrink. Watch for pressure. Stop as soon as the bolt sticks or a primer flattens. And I don't mean stop at the end of that string, I mean Right NOW!
The group might very well shrink quickly because your bullet holes are round. They are not tumbling. Another 50 or 100 fps will add a lot more RPM and maybe solve the problem. A good learning experience, anyway. Many loading experiments just prove what does not work. This is OK so long as you maintain a loading log.
At the same time I loaded the 55s I would load some 50's with the same powder charges (you can throw all the charges at the same time). If the 50s work a lot better then you can be pretty sure it is a twist issue.
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Try the 45 gr bullets or a 50 gr. H380 works great in my 22-250 Tikka. On my bottle of H380 it shows the 22-250 @ 41 grs. for a 55grain bullet.That is higher than even the Hogdons book shows ?
I have loaded 40 grs with a 50 gr bullet and it shot it well. I just don't want to burn out the barrel so I run it at 36 gr.of H380.
The other consideration I would have is bullet selection. I can group 50 or 55 gr Hornady bullets under .5 inch (3 shot group) I can't keep 3 shots of
55 grain Barnes Triple shock on the same 8.5 x 11 inch piece of paper. No crap it is that bad. I use triple shocks for barrel fouling.
So after you have done the scope tightness and other aspects I'd try another brand of bullet and weight.
I have loaded 40 grs with a 50 gr bullet and it shot it well. I just don't want to burn out the barrel so I run it at 36 gr.of H380.
The other consideration I would have is bullet selection. I can group 50 or 55 gr Hornady bullets under .5 inch (3 shot group) I can't keep 3 shots of
55 grain Barnes Triple shock on the same 8.5 x 11 inch piece of paper. No crap it is that bad. I use triple shocks for barrel fouling.
So after you have done the scope tightness and other aspects I'd try another brand of bullet and weight.
Brutus
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Edit: I think upon further research, hemidart, 444shooter and 22-250shootist are on to something here.
In my referance book, Pet Loads, the writer Ken Waters, only mentions H380 briefly in passing. It (H380) also is shown as having only a comparatively small window of velocity use in this cartridge. And the powder choice of the three gentlemen above, are shown as better performing loads in the accuracy department.
In my referance book, Pet Loads, the writer Ken Waters, only mentions H380 briefly in passing. It (H380) also is shown as having only a comparatively small window of velocity use in this cartridge. And the powder choice of the three gentlemen above, are shown as better performing loads in the accuracy department.
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Mount Sweetness
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Southern Ontario
Plenty of good info here. I myself just went out and tried my very first 10 reloads for my Ruger M77 in .22-250, don't have much for advise but here is what I experienced...
Using starting loads I had huge differences with two different 55gr. bullets,
using 34 grains of Varget and bullets seated at the recommended 2.35in...
My first 5 rounds grouped around .5inch using Sierra Gameking SBT #1365 (100 yards)....with two shots in the same hole, very impressive for me and my rifle, better than my factory ammo.
My second 5 rounds were the exact opposite, using Hornady V-Max my groups were all over the place...8 inches spread out and tumbling.
I will be focusing on the Gameking's but am very curious to see if I speed up...will the V-Max come around?
Using starting loads I had huge differences with two different 55gr. bullets,
using 34 grains of Varget and bullets seated at the recommended 2.35in...
My first 5 rounds grouped around .5inch using Sierra Gameking SBT #1365 (100 yards)....with two shots in the same hole, very impressive for me and my rifle, better than my factory ammo.
My second 5 rounds were the exact opposite, using Hornady V-Max my groups were all over the place...8 inches spread out and tumbling.
I will be focusing on the Gameking's but am very curious to see if I speed up...will the V-Max come around?
Interesting as my CZ loves SMK and Amaxes won't shoot worth ####e.
Several have mentioned the twist, for my money I would say that the 55gn bullets are just too long for the twist of your rifle.
The only time I have ever seen such poor performance in a rifle that otherwise shoots well, is when the twist rate is too slow for the bullet you are using.
What is your twist rate
What is the mvel you are getting
Which bullet are you using?
The only time I have ever seen such poor performance in a rifle that otherwise shoots well, is when the twist rate is too slow for the bullet you are using.
What is your twist rate
What is the mvel you are getting
Which bullet are you using?
- Location
- In the middle of gopher country
A bit further to the H380 thing. Years ago, like 40, when this Sako 22-250 was new. I tried H380 in this rifle different barrel of course (my third barrel is almost toast), it didn't shoot worth chit. That is when I went to IMR4320. I have used the IMR to destroy 3 barrels on this rifle. Average barrel life with 34.0 to 35.0 gn has been 6500 rounds.
Every barrel wanted that range of IMR powder and 55gn bullets. The last 2 barrels were/are Ron Smith gain twist productions. They start out at 1 in 15 twist I believe and go to 1 in 9. Maybe that is why they shoot so well. No credit to myself.
One more comment I would like to make is that I am sure that OAL doesn't matter to some rifles. My current barrel on this barrel is eroded enough that I would have to cut off approximately 3/8 of an inch from the chamber end to get the bullet close to the lands. Why this thing still is really accurate is beyond my understanding. I can imagine what the bullet is saying when it leaves the case. Something to the effect of "somebody get the gps turned on so I can find my way out of here!!!"
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I took some time with Quickload, and a bullet stability program.
If you use a 1:14 twist rifle, and set the velocity at 3500fps.
The stability of a Hornady 55gn v-max is ~0.95, Optimum is 1.3-1.5 and minimum is 1.0. Stability worsens as it gets colder, so I imagine that at this time of year those 55gn v-max bullets will never shoot very well in a 1:14 twist rifle.
The Hornady 45gn vmax bullets are much shorter (0.5 inch vs 0.813) and at the same velocity the stability is excellent (6.0) it is no wonder these shoot well in your rifle. You can play with powder and seating depth, but it is unlikely these bullets will every shoot very well.
If you use SMK 55gn bullets instead (length 0.715) you will get excellent results with a stability factor of 1.6, this is optimum.
I have had similar problems in my .223 using 75gn Amax bullets, my rifle is a 1:9 twist and it will not stabalize the longer 75gn Amax bullets. However if I use the shorter, SMK 77gn bullets I get great results.
I spent 2 months learning that I could not shoot the 75gn amax bullets, I tried mutiple powder, primer and seating conditions. I wish I had calcluated the stability factor first, it would have saved me a lot of wasted range time.
My 2 cents worth..
Good Luck!
If you use a 1:14 twist rifle, and set the velocity at 3500fps.
The stability of a Hornady 55gn v-max is ~0.95, Optimum is 1.3-1.5 and minimum is 1.0. Stability worsens as it gets colder, so I imagine that at this time of year those 55gn v-max bullets will never shoot very well in a 1:14 twist rifle.
The Hornady 45gn vmax bullets are much shorter (0.5 inch vs 0.813) and at the same velocity the stability is excellent (6.0) it is no wonder these shoot well in your rifle. You can play with powder and seating depth, but it is unlikely these bullets will every shoot very well.
If you use SMK 55gn bullets instead (length 0.715) you will get excellent results with a stability factor of 1.6, this is optimum.
I have had similar problems in my .223 using 75gn Amax bullets, my rifle is a 1:9 twist and it will not stabalize the longer 75gn Amax bullets. However if I use the shorter, SMK 77gn bullets I get great results.
I spent 2 months learning that I could not shoot the 75gn amax bullets, I tried mutiple powder, primer and seating conditions. I wish I had calcluated the stability factor first, it would have saved me a lot of wasted range time.
My 2 cents worth..
Good Luck!
I'm not convinced this is a "twist" problem. My 1-14" 222 Remington shoots the 55 V-max just great at about 3000 fps. But it may be that your rifle does not like this bullet. I have seen this on occasion. Regards, Eagleye.
Thanks for the excellent information and links. I tried this program with 50 gr spitzer's and they seem to stabilize pretty darn good as well. I have already loaded some up with minimum charges (tried two combo's with H380 and varget) and I'm hoping for some improvement.
I should think minimal charges will produce noticably better results according to this program because the minimum velocity required to produce optimal stability is around 2600 fps, which is very likely much lower than a minimum charge with this bullet weight.
Thanks again
Onagoth, I am going to go out on a limb here, and state: I bet if one takes the extra step of using any of these IMR powder choices, things will really improve!
No worries my friend, I will definitely be trying some IMR, I was thinking 4895 or 4064. A somewhat local gun shop has some of both.
