Hansol's Slug Gun Part II

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hansol

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Hey guys,

(I was supposed to get out to the range today, but the weather turned all crappy, so I have to wait now. So to kill some time I decided to re-write up my old thread.)

As most of you know by now, I wanted to come up a way to shoot copper slugs out of my SxS 12 gauge. I had heard a lot about shooting hard cast lead, but I figured a copper jacket might make things even better penetration-wise. So I set out to try this out.

Long story short, I came up with using 1/2" copper pipe caps filled with melted lead as a slug. They mic out at about .702", and then you wrap them with masking tape to bring them up to .729" (You can use teflon or paper for this to, a'la paper patching, but I'm lazy and masking tape is faster). In the end these slugs weigh around 580 grains. I called them "Hansol Slugs". Very original.

Secondly I had to come up with load data to shoot one of these. A lot of this was based on opinions and experience from other slug shooters, as well as a heck of a lot of cross-referencing. The rule of thumb for slugs is that a comparable weight shot load will generate more pressures than a comparable weight slug load. That's a fancy way of saying slugs generate LESS pressure than shot. So with that in mind, I developed the following loads:

*Now bear in mind, these are unpublished, untested loads worked in MY gun, and my gun only so far. I don't recommend others use them until they are pressure tested.*

Black Powder Load
-Win 2 3/4" Hull
-CCI 209 Primer
-105 grains Pyrdodex RS
-Fiber Wad
-580 grain Hansol Slug
-roll crimp

In theory, this load is going 1250fps. Approx pressure estimate = 6500psi. Actual pressures and speeds are unknown

Smokeless Load
-Federal 3" paper base wad hull
-CCI 209 Primer
-42 Grains Blue Dot
-WAA 12 white wad (petals cut off)
-580 Grain Hansol Slug
-roll crimp.

In theory, this load is going 1400fps. Approx pressure estimate = 9500psi. Actual speed and pressure are unknown

Again, these are untested loads, based on a lot of theory, and I'm not sure how safe they are at this point. Use at your own risk. Most importantly, DON'T USE IN A GUN WITH CHOKES. I'm pretty sure that would cause a LOT of problems. No chokes!
 
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Range Day.

Here are pics from my range day the other week.

Here's my slug gun, a Lanber Supreme with 3" chambers. She has express sights, and barrels cut to 24". She's very much a "modern" gun:
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This was 35 yards:
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Guess which holes are mine:
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As a "penetration test" on the day, I shot my slugs at a 1/2 steel plate. This happened EVERY time I pulled the trigger:
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Ten Yards (the ones on the left were test rounds):
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Test target @ Ten Yards. 4 Rounds. The ones on the left are left barrel, ones on the right, right barrel. I actually used proper aiming procedures this time instead of just banging away:
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Here are some pics of the slugs, wrapped and unwrapped (the one on the right is a reject, as you can probably tell from the base):

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hey there... this might be alittle off topic... but i've always been curious of bean bag or rubber shot for non lethal bear defense...

I dont load shotgun so i cant try it out... right now im using bird shot for non lethal bear defense... anyhow just a suggestion, sinse your creating home-made loads and shot...

cheers.
 
rollie100 said:
hey there... this might be alittle off topic... but i've always been curious of bean bag or rubber shot for non lethal bear defense...

I dont load shotgun so i cant try it out... right now im using bird shot for non lethal bear defense... anyhow just a suggestion, sinse your creating home-made loads and shot...

cheers.
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Bird shot for non lethal bear defence? Wounding bears with birdshot is a very stupid idea. If they get too close and you are in danger, shoot them dead. Where do you get your logic from....
 
Theory.

Here's a little bit of theory behind my rig. Basically my idea was to come up with a "stopping" gun. And while I didn't have anything against hard lead slugs, I just thought a copper one might work just as well, if not better. It turns out that this idea of a 12 gauge stopping gun is actually 140 years old, and goes back to the old British 12 bores of Africa. These guns tended to fire (in a 12 bore) a 600 grain round ball at around 1100fps. So this idea isn't an original one.

Secondly, a lot of guys were wondering about pulling a slug load out of "thin air". Well it wasn't quite that easy. I literally spent days reading old load data, querying experienced shooters, and reading books by WW Greener, Sam Baker, and all those old boys, trying to get an idea on loads and pressures. So the following is a comparison, showing my logic and reason:

Approved Load
-Federal 3" Paper base hull ---> Low pressure hull
-Fed 209a Primer ---> Hot (hottest) primer ---> High Pressure
-38 grains Blue Dot
- WAA12 white wad ---> Low pressure wad
-1 3/8oz lead shot ---> High pressure (compared to slug)

This generates 8800psi, and 1300fps

My load
-Federal 3" paper base hull ---> low pressure hull
-CCI 209 Primer ---> low pressure primer
-42 grains blue dot
-WAA 12 wad ---> low pressure wad
-580 grain Hansol Slug ---> My slug is 1 1/3oz, so is lighter. Plus, it's a slug, so using the rule that a slug gerates less pressure than shot ---> Low pressure

So, in theory, by using lower pressure components than my reference data, even though I have a higher powder charge, my pressures should be comparable. And by comparable, I mean not varying more than 2000psi in either direction.

As for black powder loads, I came across the following stats in the Dangerous Game Journal, based on a 12 bore shooting a 600 grain round ball using black powder:

82 grains powder = 5350psi
110 = 6850
137 = 7800
164 = 9650
191 = 9750
220 = 11400.

I can't find any sources to verify the above black powder loads in a shotgun with charges higher than 105 grains, so haven't tested any higher loads. I don't like relying on just one piece of data. So I wouldn't recommend anyone basing their loads on the above stats until you can get something to cross reference.
 
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Wow Noel, that looks like a heck of a slug gun. I wish my junker spanish rig was half as nice as that one.

And it looks like your slug performed really well. While reading a few old books, I kept coming across how the authors kept repeating how nothing seemed to penetrate or stay together as well as a hardened round ball. So I assume a hardened lead slug would fine as well. I really need to find me a decent paradox slug mold...
 
The bullet penetrated 24" of actual body then rode around the off side between the hide and fatty tissue. Broadside shots were pass throughs. Muzzle velocity about 1400fps and bullet weight started at 328 IIRC. Believe it held about 90% of it's weight. I'd like to try hollow pointing the bullet and see if it will open a bit more.

From what very little I know about shooting cast, for hunting you want the widest metplat you can get, you certainly have that with your home brew. Whether or not you need the copper jacket only further testing can prove. You could try casting some lead ones and pound both styles into the same test medium and see how they hold up.

The 12gs slug I dug out of a wood block once looked like it was put in a hydraulic press and crushed out like a washer yet it held together quite well. The hardness of the lead will play a major factor in how much success you have.
 
Hey Noel,

Good info on the metplat data. I didn't know that. But yes, I suppose having a .729" meplat would cause a bit of damage I would think eh? And your experience with the foster slugs would prove what most people are saying about how they are very soft, and like to expand on impact.

On another note, after consulting with a few black powder shooters, apparently I can use up to 191 grains of black powder safely, but the recoil will be rediculous. Velocities would be above 1500fps for a 580 grain slug, which certainly would be something.
 
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hansol said:
Hey Noel,

Good info on the metplat data. I didn't know that. But yes, I suppose having a .729" meplat would cause a bit of damage I would think eh? And your experience with the foster slugs would prove what most people are saying about how they are very soft, and like to expand on impact.

On another note, after consulting with a few black powder shooters, apparently I can use up to 191 grains of black powder safely, but the recoil will be rediculous. Velocities would be above 1500fps for a 580 grain slug, which certainly would be something.
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Your right thumb knuckle is going to make your beak draw blood with that load. I have footage of me touching off both barrels in a 3" coach gun from 6 years ago I guess. It was no pleasant either......:p

You have plenty of resistance with that bullet profile, I wonder what it will act like as far as tumbling goes?
 
Well as most everyone has come to the conclusion that I am insane, I figured I'd go with the general consensus and post this here:

I think I've come up with a way to test the barrel pressures that my slug creates. Yes, it will take a crazy person to try it, and one must be willing to blow up/ruin a shotgun to test if the rig works, but I don't really have a problem with that, as most of you know by now.

My theory is actually based on flintlocks, and their touch holes. "Modern" flintlocks, from what I can tell, operate at higher pressures compared to a shotgun due to a number of things: Rifling, smaller bore diameter, powder charges, etc. And the brilliant thing is that these flintlock rifle barrels have essentially a hole drilled through the chamber. Even more brilliant (and condusive to this exercise) is that gas shoots out this hole when the cartridge is touched off. I think that if a guy were to somehow measure these escaping gases and compare them against a constant, one would come up with a measureable way to show pressures.

My idea is to take a shotgun, and drill out a small hole in the chamber. Then tap this hole for a standard touchole liner (I don't know if this is necessary, but it will allow for longevity vs. a standard hole.) Then on top of this hole, one would silver solder a threaded female fitting to the barrel around the touchole that coincides with the male threads of a standard industrial pressure gauge.

Granted, the escaping gases would probably only be 1/10th of the volume escaping from the bore when the shotgun is fired, but I think if a guy fires standard loads that have published data available for them, and uses those as a standard, the related "pressure" indication on the industrial pressure gauge would be your "constant". In the same fashion, if a guy could come across an established recipe for a 12 gauge proof load, the resulting number on your pressure gauge would be a "danger max" for any load tested.

So with that in mind, I need to find myself a donor shotgun. I will be pinching pennies to purchase a NEF Pardner 12 gauge smooth bore, as well as obtain the proper gauges and fittings.

In my opinion, this method is no different than the "crusher" methods for testing CUP and LUP. Only in this case, rather than a crusher/piston assembly, a guy substitutes a pressure gauge instead. I admit though, I don't know if the gases escaping will be at a full 10000psi, or a fraction of that based on the bored hole diameter. I will research this matter more in the coming days.

Yes, I understand I am crazy for theorizing this, and it is most certainly "unsafe" in some peoples' minds, but oh well. We've already established I'm nuts, and am more than willing to use a string and tire to test things out. At the worst, I bulge a barrel and am out $179. At the best, I have a pressure testing rig to test all my loads. That being said, I still would prefer to send away for pressure testing if possible.

Cheers.

*note: I don't recommend anyone else try this. It's not a good idea to drill a hole in a chamber of any firearm, ever. It's dangerous, and one could get seriously hurt if they try this. Again, I don't recommend anyone else tries this until I have trialed it and can post results. Until then, be safe, and don't do this!*
 
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The above idea is a moot point though if anyone knows of ways to get loads tested in Canada. I would much rather send away loads to someone with the proper equipment, rather than spend money on a shotgun, gauges, plus my own time/effort to build a rig the could conceivably blow up on the first firing.
 
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Why bother with all that? If you use a plastic hull, its brass head will be noticeably deformed at any pressure above 12K. Use a brass cartridge and obviously you lose this warning sign.
 
I think the only reason to bother with it is that a setup like diescribed above would give a guy the ability to see how different powder charges/wad changes affect pressures.

Also, I don't know how condusive it is to chamber longevity to test loads by continually increasing the powder charge until the plastic hull ruptures. Although that being said, if plastic hull bursting doesn't affect chamber integrity, then that would certainly be a way to test loads as well. I know shotguns are proofed at higher pressures, but I don't think that means they are supposed to continually operate at those pressures.

I could be wrong though, so a lot of this is up for discussion.
 
Here's a diagram of how a CUP testing device works. Figure maybe it will shed light on my above written descriptions:
fir_m05_t10_01_large.jpg
 
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hansol said:
... I don't know how condusive it is to chamber longevity to test loads by continually increasing the powder charge until the plastic hull ruptures..
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That's not what I'm talking about. The metal base (usually brass), will deform when you go much above 10K psi. You'll see it "flow" into the extractor groove or any other opening at the breech.

This is not theory - I saw it in my Snider Enfield (using 24ga Fiochhi plastic hulls) in a very predictable fashion.
 
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