Hard cast WW bullets OK for hunting?

tootall

tootall

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I'm getting really interested in casting boolits for rifles, probably .303 and 30-06 mostly.
If I use gas checked wheel weight alloy, powder coated and water-drop hardened, I should be able to get a BHN of at least 20, and possibly 30+
I would like to get an honest 2500fps. From what I have read, this is doable.

So, if I do get BHN 30 from GCWW, will this expand enough on big game?
Is this even on the radar of various provincial hunting regs?
Nothing is said in the BC regs about cast boolits, only FMJ.
 
Stolen from buffalo bore website

Differences Between 'Lead' & 'Hard Cast' Bullets


The Differences between 'Lead' Bullets and 'Hard Cast' Bullets

Many gun owners refer to hard cast bullets as 'lead' bullets. In most cases, they do not understand the drastic differences or they would not use such an inaccurate generalization. This generalization is as inaccurate a generalization as referring to all motorized vehicles as Volkswagens.

Hard cast bullets may contain some lead and be grey in color, but that is where the similarities stop. Hard cast bullets can be formulated of numerous alloy mixes (antimony, silver, tin, etc) containing some lead, but the alloys make the bullet much harder than pure lead. Pure lead has a Brinell hardness # of about 4. Most hard cast bullets will have a Brinell hardness # of 11 to 30 and as such are several times harder than lead.

Generally speaking, a properly designed, sized and lubed hard cast bullet will not leave lead alloy deposits in a rifled barrel, but pure lead bullets will almost always foul a barrel to the point of a total loss of accuracy (with very few rounds fired) and perhaps to the point that the barrel will split or worse. ( see my essay on 'Dangerous Pure Lead Cowboy Ammunition' ) I am employing many abstractions here, as there are a number of ways to make a hard cast bullet foul your barrel and make a pure lead bullet not foul, but on the whole, what I have written in this paragraph is accurate.

Depending on certain variables, in many instances and for many uses, hard cast bullets will not deform or 'mushroom' when they impact living mammal tissues, but lead bullets will deform or 'mushroom' at very low impact speeds. Lead bullets will deform and have much less penetration while hard cast bullets will maintain their shape and penetrate deeply however, this requires using sufficiently hard alloy mixes, matched with intended impact speeds on the intended medium.

Hard cast bullets can be alloyed and designed for hunting large and dangerous game where deep penetration is needed - a lead bullet cannot be used this way. I shudder every time a customer refers to our beautiful hard cast hunting bullets as 'lead' bullets. It happens almost daily.

This short essay could not cover all the variables of/and the differences between hard cast and lead bullets - it would take a large book to do that, but hopefully it sheds some light on the on the general/gross differences.
 
Your 20 to 30 bhn is a hard cast bullet and will not expand. As for hunting regs I do not know, I suspect that if it says fmj not allowed then fmj are not allowed. A powder coated bullet is not FMJ so it should be legal.

If you are looking for the hardest bhn possible research oven treating bullets. I water drop pistol bullets but for rifle I use the oven method.
 
For hunting bullets I would use soft lead and powder coated. If you go with harder lead I would suggest using a bullet with a large me plat(flat nose) and heavy for caliber bullet.

Don't worry about speed too much.
 
In the old days using lead bullets for hunting was an extremely common application. Its understandably with the modern loadbooks put out by the bullet makers are not going to promote cast lead bullets. Lyman books has good info on cast use and as others said casting bullets to the correct Brinell hardness is what is needed. I love reading the old loading books from close to 100 years ago as cast what was primarily used. I finally bought my own copy of J.R. Mattern’s “Handloading Ammunition”, originally printed in 1926. There is lots of good info that is applicable to today. C E Harris has written about this use as well. http://home.comcast.net/~gavinsw/guns/castbulletmilitaryrifle.pdf
Wondering around Cabelas yesterday I find to tough to pay over $40 per 100 for jacketed bullets for informal target shooting.
 
I have a bullet sitting here that I got from the Bullet Barn.It went through the shoulder of a pig and you could probably use it again except for the land marks on it. Pig dropped where she stood. I use a cast bullet of my own making in my 30-30 that has a bullet check and it does flatten out well. The lead for them came from the packing for oil well pumps.
 
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Go to the NRA website and search around. You will find a free downloadable copy of ' From Ingot to Target A Cast Bullet Guide for Handgunners By Glen F. Fryxell and Robert L. Applegate.' It's basically aimed at casting and casting for handguns, but has so much information on using cast bullets for hunting, what works and what doesn't.
 
X2 on Glen Fryxell's Book. Easy read with all the information you could want.

A hard cast will not expand but it will penetrate an unbelievable amount of tissue and with a flat point will cut a nice close to caliber sized hole as it dose it.
 
tootall said:
I'm getting really interested in casting boolits for rifles, probably .303 and 30-06 mostly.
If I use gas checked wheel weight alloy, powder coated and water-drop hardened, I should be able to get a BHN of at least 20, and possibly 30+
I would like to get an honest 2500fps. From what I have read, this is doable.

So, if I do get BHN 30 from GCWW, will this expand enough on big game?
Is this even on the radar of various provincial hunting regs?
Nothing is said in the BC regs about cast boolits, only FMJ.
Click to expand...

Research paper patching as that eliminates that pesky leading problem... Higher velocities with lower pressures, and in several guns, I have paper patched bullets that will go as fast as jacked loads for the same weight... You dont' have to gas check with a paper patch.

As I hear, as I have never hunted with them, softer lead is better for hunting as it allows for expansion.

My personal opinion about powder coating is that the powder coating might wear off in the barrel, and cause an abrasion issue, and you need a harder bullet to get the speed. Whereas paper patching doesn't suffer from that problem. I have heard of guys pushing 2600-2800 fps with soft lead paper patched bullets... I have heard of 3400 fps with a hard cast paper patched bullet out of a 300 win mag... (as these accounts are 3rd hand, I assume no responsibility for their accuracy)

In my 45-70, I have used jacked max loads for a 325 gr bullet according to the lee second edition book with a 330 gr hard cast paper patched bullet. No gas check, etc. Not a sign of leading, or over pressure in the case. I have some experimental brass I haven't resized for 40 rounds. I just use a universal decap die, reprime, drop the powder in, slide the bullet in my hand, press down a little bit, and use the sizing die to tighten the case mouth around the bullet. 40 times fired, and still cycles properly in a lever gun...

Hope this helps...
 
Hunting regs. usually have a "must use expanding bullets" with not much more of a definition of the medium as to how that is tested or arrived at. I can guarantee your bullets "as hard as you can make them" will "expand" at 2500 fps if they hit steel. Hard cast (Bullet Barn brand) pistol bullets that hit steel at 6 or 700 fps will be as big and flat as a toony when they settle to the ground. With the lack of more specific parameters to judge by, all hard cast would be legal.

I have never recovered a cast bullet from a deer to observe the shape it was in but I will say that I have hade 100% results on numerous deer with hard cast (and a couple with pure lead as well).
 
you can use soft lead bullets for hunting, they expand nicely.
if you want to get fancy you can make a soft nose hard cast bullet so the shank and driving bands are hard so it can be pushed harder and by having pure lead half way in the front you will still get nice expansion on game.
here are a few clips showing how its made.





enjoy and play safe.
 
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If you are water dropping after casting, keep in mind that if you then dry tumble powder coat, you will have to bake the powder on.... This will nullify any hardness you gained from water dropping.
 
Thanks for all the replies.

I have been reading a lot from CastBoolits.com, and the book that Grumpyold mentioned, From Ingot To Target.
LOTS of info there!
One point they make is that correct sizing is FAR more important than hardness. Yomomma hinted at that.
So now I am thinking that instead of segregating my WW from my mystery mix lead (mostly pure lead pellets, range scrap, and some dentist office Xray shielding), I'll blend it all together and not try to hit 30+BHN

Howard2, I'll look for JR Mattern Handloading Ammunition. That is new to me.

Amosfella, I havent thought of PP. The 30-06 will be for my Garands, so the PP may get stripped offon the ride to the chamber.
Should be fine for my Lee-Enfield though.

Phishroy, that 2-alloy idea looks REALLY time consuming.

Loyalist, I was planning on waterdropping right after the PC cooking.
 
tootall said:
Amosfella, I havent thought of PP. The 30-06 will be for my Garands, so the PP may get stripped offon the ride to the chamber.
Should be fine for my Lee-Enfield though.
Click to expand...

I've heard of guys using PP in sks's. It might work... On the other hand, I'm not of a temperament to find out yet myself with my first run yugo sks... I did make some for my cz 527 in 7.62x39 and they worked quite well... Depending on the LE bore diameter, you might be able to easily get away with one mold for both the 30-06 and 303 with a small amount of resizing. There's a guy on castboolets who makes really nice push through sizing dies of any size you want, and cheaper shipped than from Lee too... If you want to talk further on it, let me know... It's actually quite versatile if done properly...
 
The 2 alloy softnose doesn't take all that much extra time. I use 2 pots. One with the pure lead, and a small dipper, and my bigger bottom pour for the rest of the body of the boolit.

You don't have to make up too many of these "softnoses", because you only need a few for hunting the critter. You can cast hundreds of regular boolits, and use them for practice and sighting in. The special boolits get reserved for the hunt.
 
If you are going to use ANY bullet for hunting, you need to match what it does to what caliber bullet. A hard cast /.45 caliber bullet from a 45/70 may not expand much, but it's alrady the same diameter or larger than what many .30 cal bullets expand to. Whereas if you use a .30 cal,. you probably want some expansion. Hope that makes sense.....

Lead bullets are classed as expanding in BC as far as I can tell. FMJ and solids are not legal for hunting, although a solid from a .458 would of course kill a deer. :)

I'll leave the details on how to get what you want to the guys with way more experience with cast than I have. :)
 
Running two pots of different alloys makes more sense. I have heard of that method before.

Gatehouse, yes, the starting size does make sense.

I suppose I could cut an X in the bullet tip, the way the old-timers used to make "Dum-dums"
 
Instead of this process (2 pots), cast some soft lead bullets, powder coat then remove the top half of the powder coat before curing.

That way you can push the bullets faster and get same result with out having to get 2 pots going.
 
The PC is durable, but it is not a Jacket.
I cannot see it holding the shape when the bullet impacts flesh at 2500fps.

But I am leaning towards a softer alloy, and just make sure that it is sized correctly, about 2-3 thou over groove dia.
 
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