Being as my grandfather was a Pte. in the Hastings and Prince Edward Reg't, I'm interested to know what the unit would've been kitted out with. I know they had the No. 4 rifle, Thompson smg, and Brens, but would an average infantryman carry a .38 S&W? Were they ever issued the Hi-Power? Anyone with Hasty P interests?
Hasty P/Plough Jockey issued kit
- Thread starter Kirk1701
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Beginning with the invasion of Sicily in 1943 the No4 Lee-Enfield was standard issue for an infantryman serving in any Cdn Infantry battalion in WW2. Section commanders were issued with Thompson SMGs in Italy and STENs in NW Europe. Revolvers and pistols were reserved for officers, tank crews, and other specialist personnel. A designated BREN gunner carried the BREN while his No2 carried a Lee Enfield. When involved in combat there were many opportunities for people to pick up and use anything, own or the enemy, as there were plenty of loose pieces to be found on the battlefield. Formal Equipment Tables tended to be set aside once in combat.
People had to be careful about picking up and using German pieces because of their distinctive sounds when fired. Other things that mitigated against this were lack of a ready ammo supply and the risks of being taken prisoner while using the other side`s equipment.
My uncle was a tank fitter and was issued with a .38 S&W which he carried from Normandy to VE Day. he also had and discarded a Thompson SMG as too heavy and cumbersome. We have a pic of him shooting an M1 Garand which he picked up at some point. I am fortunate to own his personal issue S&W which he shipped home in pieces after VE Day.
People had to be careful about picking up and using German pieces because of their distinctive sounds when fired. Other things that mitigated against this were lack of a ready ammo supply and the risks of being taken prisoner while using the other side`s equipment.
My uncle was a tank fitter and was issued with a .38 S&W which he carried from Normandy to VE Day. he also had and discarded a Thompson SMG as too heavy and cumbersome. We have a pic of him shooting an M1 Garand which he picked up at some point. I am fortunate to own his personal issue S&W which he shipped home in pieces after VE Day.
From what I can gather, it was FAR more common for a Canadian infantryman to be carrying a captured axis pistol, not for defensive purposes, but as a trophy, than it was for them to be carrying an issue sidearm. Foot soldiers, with a few exceptions, were issued rifles and SMGs only. Having a secondary weapon available is more of a modern trend for most armies.
As an old MWO friend of mine used to say (before he died), "a pistol is only good for fighting your way back to the rifle you were stupid enough to lay down". And that has been the prevailing though for many many years until recently.
As an old MWO friend of mine used to say (before he died), "a pistol is only good for fighting your way back to the rifle you were stupid enough to lay down". And that has been the prevailing though for many many years until recently.
Purple, please don't take this the wrong way.
An uncle of mine, that was killed in a tractor accident in Saskatchewan 35 years ago, fought in North Africa, Italy etc.
The unit he was in highly frowned upon using or carrying battlefield pick up firearms. Things happen and firearms get broken, lost or quit working. The troopie, did what he had to do and made do with what came to hand.
If they wanted a souvenir, they had to turn it in to someone to be recorded and if accepted, sent back home. He sent two pistols home as well as some other stuff. Some of the things he turned in, were either high graded or refused. Mostly, they were personal items from a fallen foe. Rings, watches, paybooks, personal photos, that sort of thing.
Wearing enemy clothing was strictly forbidden. The only thing they made the exception for was the White winter camo smock that were quite prized. The Canadian wool uniforms tended to soak up water and gather frozen snow very well. Not only that, the smocks were quite similar to their own.
They were encouraged to familiarize themselves with axis weapons, during lulls or after being pulled back.
When it came time to be shipped home, if you had an unauthorized weapon in your kit and managed to get caught with it, you got to spend another six months in Europe on occupation duty.
I wish I had access to some of the pics in his scrap book. He managed to be unlucky enough to be the one in five selected to have his bag inspected and was caught with a pistol. In the six months of occupation duty, he took many pics. He had a rescued German camera and managed to get ahold of a lot of film.
He had dozens of pics of destroyed German, Italian and Austrian towns. Nothing from Africa at all. One thing that always amazed me, were the piles of small arms laying in the streets. There were also piles of ammunition of all sorts.
The piles of small arms, weren't just axis arms. There were Russian, Italian, British, Austrian, US, French etc. He didn't know if the Germans had used them or if they were from captured stores or from fallen allied troops. Just that there were thousands upon thousands of them. Everything from pistols on belts in holsters to smgs, rifles, hand grenades, panzerfausts etc. You name it, it was likely there.
The people in the area, couldn't care less about them and didn't bother with them, other than a few kids and thugs. There was also a strict prohibition against being in unauthorized possession of firearms while under Martial Law.
Anyway, he wasn't allowed to search through those piles. No souvenirs, after armistice was official. I'm sure a lot of stuff slipped through but one thing he did mention, was that entrepreneurs from all over Europe and the rest of the world, were checking this stuff out and either putting claims on it or bidding on it.
I suspect that most troopies using captured equipment were reequipped when moved back from the front for R&R or to be moved to another area.
An uncle of mine, that was killed in a tractor accident in Saskatchewan 35 years ago, fought in North Africa, Italy etc.
The unit he was in highly frowned upon using or carrying battlefield pick up firearms. Things happen and firearms get broken, lost or quit working. The troopie, did what he had to do and made do with what came to hand.
If they wanted a souvenir, they had to turn it in to someone to be recorded and if accepted, sent back home. He sent two pistols home as well as some other stuff. Some of the things he turned in, were either high graded or refused. Mostly, they were personal items from a fallen foe. Rings, watches, paybooks, personal photos, that sort of thing.
Wearing enemy clothing was strictly forbidden. The only thing they made the exception for was the White winter camo smock that were quite prized. The Canadian wool uniforms tended to soak up water and gather frozen snow very well. Not only that, the smocks were quite similar to their own.
They were encouraged to familiarize themselves with axis weapons, during lulls or after being pulled back.
When it came time to be shipped home, if you had an unauthorized weapon in your kit and managed to get caught with it, you got to spend another six months in Europe on occupation duty.
I wish I had access to some of the pics in his scrap book. He managed to be unlucky enough to be the one in five selected to have his bag inspected and was caught with a pistol. In the six months of occupation duty, he took many pics. He had a rescued German camera and managed to get ahold of a lot of film.
He had dozens of pics of destroyed German, Italian and Austrian towns. Nothing from Africa at all. One thing that always amazed me, were the piles of small arms laying in the streets. There were also piles of ammunition of all sorts.
The piles of small arms, weren't just axis arms. There were Russian, Italian, British, Austrian, US, French etc. He didn't know if the Germans had used them or if they were from captured stores or from fallen allied troops. Just that there were thousands upon thousands of them. Everything from pistols on belts in holsters to smgs, rifles, hand grenades, panzerfausts etc. You name it, it was likely there.
The people in the area, couldn't care less about them and didn't bother with them, other than a few kids and thugs. There was also a strict prohibition against being in unauthorized possession of firearms while under Martial Law.
Anyway, he wasn't allowed to search through those piles. No souvenirs, after armistice was official. I'm sure a lot of stuff slipped through but one thing he did mention, was that entrepreneurs from all over Europe and the rest of the world, were checking this stuff out and either putting claims on it or bidding on it.
I suspect that most troopies using captured equipment were reequipped when moved back from the front for R&R or to be moved to another area.
It's very interesting how innovative and/or daring some folks were with sending stuff home. In my part of Saskatchewan pretty much all of my dad`s generation were vets and gunnutz to boot and most of them brought some kind of weapon back from Europe as a souvenir. People who normally had a dedicated vehicle, like arty crews, mechanics, signallers etc. had a better chance of lugging their loot with them than did `Herbie` who served in the infantry. In my uncle`s case he disassembled 2 revolvers and a P-38 and sent them home in pieces. One guy took a lot of pride in telling how he had stripped a Luger and wedged it inside his canteen after cutting the bottom out of the canteen. Another guy brought home an M3 Grease Gun, which was my favourite and a real hoot to shoot. There were also a couple of STENs, a Thompson, a Broomhandle Mauser, and an MP44 to be seen. There were P38s and Lugers galore and I remember one guy with a stone mint Inglis HP which I tried to buy from him in later years. Sadly he had gotten tired of it and put it in his wood burning stove to get rid of it! I sometimes wonder what ever happened to all of that exotic stuff. My guess is that most of it wound up down the $hithole or in the bottom of a slough when the owner lost interest in it. Most of the handguns were registered, but the SMGs were strictly contraband.
The Brits were very tough on their people over contraband weapons. It is said that the bottom of the English channel from Calais back to England is paved with German pistols which were tossed overboard by guys who had second thoughts about having their discharges deferred for being caught with verboten stuff.
I did a tour in the middle east not too long after the Yom Kippur war and there were still a lot of knocked out tanks to be seen in the Sinai and on the Golan Heights. I did check several T54 or T55 for those Russki pistols which were supposedly stowed under the driver`s seat, but nadda. One night we had our QM stores, complete with weapons records, burn down on the Golan Heights. I thought I was being very clever in dawn`s first gleaming when I had the RQMS personally check everybody`s weapon and have them re-sign for it by serial number on an aquittance roll from the paymaster. Several years later I was talking to someone who, during a subsequent tour, had found an FN in the ceiling of one of the barracks which could not be accounted for. I concluded that some other `gunnnut` had nicked it during the night of the great holocaust, maybe with the idea of taking it home, but then lost the inclination to go through with it.
Stuff was pretty available on the black market when I was back in Syria for a long tour. $50 would get you an AK47 if you wanted it. $10,000 got you a shiny new Mercedes, complete with German plates, fresh out of a sea-can in Beirut after being stolen off the street and driven directly to Marseilles for shipment. You wouldn't have wanted to ship one of those beauties home and tried to register it. I couldn't come home without something, so I bought a nice Beretta shotgun over in the Bekaa valley in Lebanon which I used to hunt ducks and geese up along the Euphrates river flyway from Africa to Russia.
The Brits were very tough on their people over contraband weapons. It is said that the bottom of the English channel from Calais back to England is paved with German pistols which were tossed overboard by guys who had second thoughts about having their discharges deferred for being caught with verboten stuff.
I did a tour in the middle east not too long after the Yom Kippur war and there were still a lot of knocked out tanks to be seen in the Sinai and on the Golan Heights. I did check several T54 or T55 for those Russki pistols which were supposedly stowed under the driver`s seat, but nadda. One night we had our QM stores, complete with weapons records, burn down on the Golan Heights. I thought I was being very clever in dawn`s first gleaming when I had the RQMS personally check everybody`s weapon and have them re-sign for it by serial number on an aquittance roll from the paymaster. Several years later I was talking to someone who, during a subsequent tour, had found an FN in the ceiling of one of the barracks which could not be accounted for. I concluded that some other `gunnnut` had nicked it during the night of the great holocaust, maybe with the idea of taking it home, but then lost the inclination to go through with it.
Stuff was pretty available on the black market when I was back in Syria for a long tour. $50 would get you an AK47 if you wanted it. $10,000 got you a shiny new Mercedes, complete with German plates, fresh out of a sea-can in Beirut after being stolen off the street and driven directly to Marseilles for shipment. You wouldn't have wanted to ship one of those beauties home and tried to register it. I couldn't come home without something, so I bought a nice Beretta shotgun over in the Bekaa valley in Lebanon which I used to hunt ducks and geese up along the Euphrates river flyway from Africa to Russia.
There is a small museum in the Armoury in Belleville which is HQ for Hastings and Prince Edward Regt. When I first started working for Lands and Forests Dept in 1969 there were lots of WWII vets working for Prov. Gov't. I was hired on in Bancroft which is in the Northern Part of Hastings County. I got to know a lot of ex Hasty P's
The Regiment by Farley Mowat should be read by anyone who has an interest in Hasty P history. I've read the book a couple times and still have a hard time getting my mind around the fact that these rather quiet middle aged gentlemen that I started to work with did what they did in Sicilly, Italy and NW Europe. Most are gone now but a winner of a MM in Scilly is still living in Bancroft.
Small hamlet of Coe Hill about 20 minutes south of Bancroft hosts an excellant Warrior's Day weekend every Labour Day weekend. Includes a parade as well as military vehicle display etc.
Hasting's and Prince Edward Regt will be well represented there including some "kit" from their museum as well as their Bren carrier which will be in the parade. Usually a Sherman tank from Museum in Oshawa there as well. They host a Remembrance Service after the parade on Sunday including the firing of a WWII artillery piece
A great place for anyone interested in military history. Also a good place to introduce your kids/granchildren to Canadian military history. Right in the middle of Eastern Ont Cottage country.
The Regiment by Farley Mowat should be read by anyone who has an interest in Hasty P history. I've read the book a couple times and still have a hard time getting my mind around the fact that these rather quiet middle aged gentlemen that I started to work with did what they did in Sicilly, Italy and NW Europe. Most are gone now but a winner of a MM in Scilly is still living in Bancroft.
Small hamlet of Coe Hill about 20 minutes south of Bancroft hosts an excellant Warrior's Day weekend every Labour Day weekend. Includes a parade as well as military vehicle display etc.
Hasting's and Prince Edward Regt will be well represented there including some "kit" from their museum as well as their Bren carrier which will be in the parade. Usually a Sherman tank from Museum in Oshawa there as well. They host a Remembrance Service after the parade on Sunday including the firing of a WWII artillery piece
A great place for anyone interested in military history. Also a good place to introduce your kids/granchildren to Canadian military history. Right in the middle of Eastern Ont Cottage country.
I'm from Bancroft as is all my family back to 1895. Hence my grandfather's service to the Regiment. He had a horrible psoriasis flare-up at the front and was invalided back to England where he met my grandmother. His record actually states "wounded." Must've been the only way to classify such an illness. He spent the rest of the war driving a jeep.
I know the MM winner from Coe Hill, as well. I won't mention his name here as he's very modest about his service. They were all heroes.
"...average infantryman carry a .38 S&W?..." No. Officers and NCO's got handguns. The OR's got rifles. Everything else depends on when. There would have been STENs too.
"...if you had..." Worked with a guy in the gun shop whose da said there were kit checks on the dock side in Halifax. Tons of stuff was turned in and destroyed. Absolutely no handguns were allowed, period. Handguns had been declared evil by Mac King's Liberals in 1936ish.
"...if you had..." Worked with a guy in the gun shop whose da said there were kit checks on the dock side in Halifax. Tons of stuff was turned in and destroyed. Absolutely no handguns were allowed, period. Handguns had been declared evil by Mac King's Liberals in 1936ish.
From what I can gather Canadian troops were not permitted to bring back ANY firearms from overseas though some did smuggle a few in. American servicemen were given Capture Papers for firearms they wanted to bring home, no such allowances were made for Canadians returning home. Probably why there is such a scarcity of K98k bringbacks in Canada. If you were going to sneak something home a handgun is easier than a rifle. A friend's dad served with the Cameron Highlanders in Normandy and was wounded by shrapnel. He was taken to a field hospital unconcious and was bitter to his dying day that, "the bastards robbed me blind!!!" Luger, SS dagger, Iron Crosses, all gone.
AFAIK there was no provision for Cdn troops to bring back souvenir weapons after WW2 and this policy remains to the present. Getting back into a military mindset, there are probably understandable reasons for this. After WW1 the Cdn Army experienced rioting among the troops in the UK awaiting shipping to take them home. Large numbers of troops were held in the UK up to the summer of 1919 before being repatriated. Some of this was pretty ugly and involved mutinous behaviour which, in some cases, was suppressed with deadly force. No doubt this experience still existed in the corporate memory during WW2. In July of 1945 Cdn troops awaiting repatriation rioted in Aldershot, England for many of the same reasons that caused their forefathers to protest after WW1; boredom, impatience to get home, poor food, interrupted pay, and limited or expensive recreational opportunities. In retrospect there was some wisdom to a policy which kept weapons out of the hands of soldiers in these circumstances.
Control of weapons and ammo has always loomed large in the military culture and there is no allowance for non-controlled weapons to be held by soldiers who might be inclined to use them in an unsupervised, illegal, or unauthorized way. Pistols and revolvers have always been a sensitive issue because of the high probability of accidental/negligent discharges. This remains a problem up to the present where there was at least one fatality in Afghanistan caused by a soldier who was dicking around with his piece. It's often been said that pistols caused more casualties to our own side than to the enemy.
In spite of these prohibitions lots of people did manage to bring souvenir pieces back after WW2. Most of these guys weren't career soldiers, so were probably more inclined to take the risks involved. Things seemed a bit less stringent after WW1 when a lot of souvenir pistols, as well as pistols or revolvers which had been privately purchased by officers as part of their authorized kit, made it back. The determination to bring back souvenirs persisted after the Korean war with US M1911 pistols and M1 Carbines being the pieces of choice. There have been attempts to smuggle back various pieces in recent years, but by and large it has become a non-issue because of the disciplinary deterrents and the challenges of trying to ship unauthorized gear home through closely supervised military channels.
Control of weapons and ammo has always loomed large in the military culture and there is no allowance for non-controlled weapons to be held by soldiers who might be inclined to use them in an unsupervised, illegal, or unauthorized way. Pistols and revolvers have always been a sensitive issue because of the high probability of accidental/negligent discharges. This remains a problem up to the present where there was at least one fatality in Afghanistan caused by a soldier who was dicking around with his piece. It's often been said that pistols caused more casualties to our own side than to the enemy.
In spite of these prohibitions lots of people did manage to bring souvenir pieces back after WW2. Most of these guys weren't career soldiers, so were probably more inclined to take the risks involved. Things seemed a bit less stringent after WW1 when a lot of souvenir pistols, as well as pistols or revolvers which had been privately purchased by officers as part of their authorized kit, made it back. The determination to bring back souvenirs persisted after the Korean war with US M1911 pistols and M1 Carbines being the pieces of choice. There have been attempts to smuggle back various pieces in recent years, but by and large it has become a non-issue because of the disciplinary deterrents and the challenges of trying to ship unauthorized gear home through closely supervised military channels.
While that's true, it was NOT common knowledge in europe and a LOT of commonwealth soldiers lugged trophies all over europe, only to throw them overboard sea transports when the riot act was read on the way home
