Have premium bullets made the 308 the logical "top of the food chain" in its family?

[buckchaser]

Have premium bullets made the 308 the logical "top of the food chain" in its family?

Have premium bullets (especially the copper TSX and such) rendered the 338 Federal and 358 Winchester moot in the 308 family tree? Is there really anything (outside of a coastal brown bear or bison perhaps) in North America that a 308 stoked with a 165 grain TSX cannot anchor with authority within the reasonable (250 meters) distance that the vast majority of North American big game is shot at?

Do the 338 Federal and 358 Winchester actually bring anything "extra to the party" now that monometal bullets, modern powders, etc. have increased the lethality of the 308?

I have a 243, 7mm-08, and 308. Have long considered adding either a 338 Federal or 358 Winchester to the "stable", but not sure that I'll see any "real life" advantages over my 308 shooting 165 grain Trophy Coppers.

Opinions and personal experiences welcome!

 

[burnt_servo]

there s no replacement for displacement ...................

while a "premium " bullet ay actually work better in a 308 , versus 358 with a "standard " or even a cast bullet look at the cost difference . it can be HUGE .

what happens when the supply line of premium bullets disappears ?

there is also no reason why a premium bullet can't be used in the larger bored rifles to regain the advantage they had previously .

 

[p.Rundle]

Yeah but it's inefficient to use a larger caliber than you need. Even if a .338 is 2x as effective as it was, it only NEEDED to be 1x. I agree with the OP, the .308 is probably going to make more and more rounds (dare I say .30-06...) obsolete in coming years. Then again, the 6.5 CM may make the .308 obsolete too...we live in a crazy world.

 

[Gatehouse]

The .308 with premium bullets-starting with the Nosler Partition- has always been a good killer of normal North American game at reasonable distances. Even with regular bullets, it's fine if shot placement is correct, like any other cartridge. Sticking a Barnes bullet in it just makes it better.

I've posted this before, but this is my buddy shooting a 7-08 with 145gr LRK bullets into a massive Roosevelt elk. A .308 with 130-150gr TTSX would do the same thing.

Most hunters buy different cartridges because they feel it gives them an edge or it interests them. At longer ranges, it's hard to argue that a 7RM or .300 is not a better choice than the .308. But most game is shot within 300 yards and usually much closer, so a guy with a .308 or similar, and a premium bullet are going to do very well.

 

[cam1936]

Yeah but it's inefficient to use a larger caliber than you need. Even if a .338 is 2x as effective as it was, it only NEEDED to be 1x. I agree with the OP, the .308 is probably going to make more and more rounds (dare I say .30-06...) obsolete in coming years. Then again, the 6.5 CM may make the .308 obsolete too...we live in a crazy world.

No different than the old days. The .30-06 offers more of everything over the .308 (including recoil) just like it did in the old days. Same with the .300 WM over the 06.

I don't get why you think mono metal bullets have revolutionized the .308 Win? Does the .308 with a 165 grain TSX do anything more than a .308 with a 165 grain Partition? No. In fact the .308 never needed mono metal bullets as the velocity is quite tame. The real advantage of the mono metal bullets is they stay together with ultra high velocities.

Not saying they don't work in the .308, just that they don't do anything the .308 couldn't do before with a premium traditional bullet.

These discussions are quite asinine. No cartridge makes any other obsolete. They all bring something to the table and it is up to the shooter to weigh pros and cons and decide the best fit for himself.

 

[Hitzy]

Have premium bullets (especially the copper TSX and such) rendered the 338 Federal and 358 Winchester moot in the 308 family tree? Is there really anything (outside of a coastal brown bear or bison perhaps) in North America that a 308 stoked with a 165 grain TSX cannot anchor with authority within the reasonable (250 meters) distance that the vast majority of North American big game is shot at?

Do the 338 Federal and 358 Winchester actually bring anything "extra to the party" now that monometal bullets, modern powders, etc. have increased the lethality of the 308?

I have a 243, 7mm-08, and 308. Have long considered adding either a 338 Federal or 358 Winchester to the "stable", but not sure that I'll see any "real life" advantages over my 308 shooting 165 grain Trophy Coppers.

Opinions and personal experiences welcome!

My take on the Barnes solids is you should be going lighter, not heavier. You need the extra velocity as insurance as they may fail to expand under 2200fps. In 308 I'd run 130/150 in a Barnes.
Now a partition, or bonded, go as heavy or as light as you want....they expand and stay together at a wider velocity range.

 

[Brian46]

Most hunters buy different cartridges because they feel it gives them an edge or it interests them. At longer ranges, it's hard to argue that a 7RM or .300 is not a better choice than the .308.

If it is hard to argue that those are not better, might as well step all the way up to 338 Lapua or 50bmg if you need the performance at range on an animal. Those would be my choices as the bigger calibers are far more forgiving when shooting long distances while combating varying field conditions

 

[Gatehouse]

No different than the old days. The .30-06 offers more of everything over the .308 (including recoil) just like it did in the old days. Same with the .300 WM over the 06.

I don't get why you think mono metal bullets have revolutionized the .308 Win? Does the .308 with a 165 grain TSX do anything more than a .308 with a 165 grain Partition? No. In fact the .308 never needed mono metal bullets as the velocity is quite tame. The real advantage of the mono metal bullets is they stay together with ultra high velocities.

Not saying they don't work in the .308, just that they don't do anything the .308 couldn't do before with a premium traditional bullet.

These discussions are quite asinine. No cartridge makes any other obsolete. They all bring something to the table and it is up to the shooter to weigh pros and cons and decide the best fit for himself.

The nice thing about the Barnes in "smaller" cartridges is that you can go lighter to possibly flatten trajectory over regular ranges (say 300 yards-obviously longer bullets with better BC work better at longer ranges ) and the lighter bullet will penetrate just as well or better than the heavier one. For instance, a 130gr TTSX will penetrate just as well as a 180gr Partition, and more than a 180gr cup and core bullet.

Not to say that any of the above won't work, but that's the appeal of the monometals. Turning a smaller cartridge into a "bigger one"

No cartridge makes any other obsolete. They all bring something to the table and it is up to the shooter to weigh pros and cons and decide the best fit for himself

Except for the 375 Ruger making the H&H obsolete, I agree.

 

[Gatehouse]

If it is hard to argue that those are not better, might as well step all the way up to 338 Lapua or 50bmg if you need the performance at range on an animal. Those would be my choices as the bigger calibers are far more forgiving when shooting long distances while combating varying field conditions

Let us know how your choices work out this season! Hunting opened August 1 in BC, so you have lots of opportunity to tell us of your adventures!

 

[brybenn]

Mono metal bullets show their weakness as the range grows and the velocity drops. Hit a deer behind the front leg with a Barnes from your 308 at 350 yards and it may not expand leaving you to track the animal. The same situation with a Hornady sst will create a much larger temp wound cavity and bring the deer down faster as it disrupts more interals.
I don't believe Barnes offer any advantage in calibers under 375 unless one wishes to use a very high velocity tiny bore magnum at close range. In which case a milder slightly larger caliber with a traditional cup and core bullet would work just as well if not better.
These are my thoughts formed by my experiences

 

[chuck nelson]

Mono metal bullets show their weakness as the range grows and the velocity drops. Hit a deer behind the front leg with a Barnes from your 308 at 350 yards and it may not expand leaving you to track the animal. The same situation with a Hornady sst will create a much larger temp wound cavity and bring the deer down faster as it disrupts more interals.
I don't believe Barnes offer any advantage in calibers under 375 unless one wishes to use a very high velocity tiny bore magnum at close range. In which case a milder slightly larger caliber with a traditional cup and core bullet would work just as well if not better.
These are my thoughts formed by my experiences

That's a great guess. Thanks.

 

[Brian46]

Let us know how your choices work out this season! Hunting opened August 1 in BC, so you have lots of opportunity to tell us of your adventures!

I have posted in the past about long range stuff, the amount of people who are against it make it not worth posting successful results from past years and future. I'm not here to debate ethics with people that say it shouldn't be legal because they have imposed much closer limits on themselves because of equipment, ability, etc

 

[cdn shooter]

I have posted in the past about long range stuff, the amount of people who are against it make it not worth posting successful results from past years and future. I'm not here to debate ethics with people that say it shouldn't be legal because they have imposed much closer limits on themselves because of equipment, ability, etc

I don't think GHs comment had anything to do with long range ethics. The fact that you threw the 50bmg into the converversation would lead a person to think you have no idea. Are you really saying you pack a 35lb rifle when you head out after game. Having done the LR thing for more than a decade now I'm quite confident in saying that the 300 mag, 7 mags are much better for the job. A 338L could be made light enough but it needs a brake, and a braked 338L is a bit much without hearing protection.

 

[Brian46]

I don't think GHs comment had anything to do with long range ethics. The fact that you threw the 50bmg into the converversation would lead a person to think you have no idea. Are you really saying you pack a 35lb rifle when you head out after game. Having done the LR thing for more than a decade now I'm quite confident in saying that the 300 mag, 7 mags are much better for the job. A 338L could be made light enough but it needs a brake, and a braked 338L is a bit much without hearing protection.

Who has a 35lb 50 they hunt with?

And why would you be carrying the rifle around, it is not spot and stalk hunting, it is sit and wait type of hunting in areas you have practiced making those long distance shots for years in all available field conditions.

338L from desert tech is 10lbs, the 50 is 20lbs. And yes hearing protection is a must but at distance you have time to put it on/get setup

Thanks for re confirming why I don't post details of my hunts

 

[GMC403]

Who has a 35lb 50 they Snipe with?

And why would you be carrying the rifle around, it is not spot and stalk hunting, it is sit and wait type of Sniping in areas you have practiced making those long distance shots for years in all available field conditions.

338L from desert tech is 10lbs, the 50 is 20lbs. And yes hearing protection is a must but at distance you have time to put it on/get setup

Thanks for re confirming why I don't post details of my Sniping

There, fixed it

To each there own........ Ethics aside (I don't care either way) I find stalking up close part of the fun of hunting.

 

[buckchaser]

I have no idea why you have decided to discuss long range hunting and criticisms of your long range hunting in a thread that was talking about the 308 family of cartridges being used at the distances 99.9% of big game is taken in Canada - well done derailing the thread.

 

[Kevan]

Have premium bullets (especially the copper TSX and such) rendered the 338 Federal and 358 Winchester moot in the 308 family tree? Is there really anything (outside of a coastal brown bear or bison perhaps) in North America that a 308 stoked with a 165 grain TSX cannot anchor with authority within the reasonable (250 meters) distance that the vast majority of North American big game is shot at?

Do the 338 Federal and 358 Winchester actually bring anything "extra to the party" now that monometal bullets, modern powders, etc. have increased the lethality of the 308?

I have a 243, 7mm-08, and 308. Have long considered adding either a 338 Federal or 358 Winchester to the "stable", but not sure that I'll see any "real life" advantages over my 308 shooting 165 grain Trophy Coppers.

Opinions and personal experiences welcome!

Yes, it baffles me why some derail a perfectly interesting thread but it happens.

I only have three members of the 308 family, four 308s, a 358 and a 270/08.
The newest 308 has yet to fire a shot, ( 20 " Howa ) but I'm anxious to try it with hunting loads of course and having a really good selection of Barnes, Nosler, Hornady on hand should make it interesting.
Will one supplant another in my gun safe, I doubt it, but for my type of hunting and distances I shoot the 308 with a monometal bullet should suffice, that is providing it will match or exceed other bullets for accuracy.
However, from my experience with the copper bullets I have found them to perform better in the bigger chamberings like .458, .416, .375, etc.
The .284 and 30 bullets seem much more difficult to work up loads that will match conventional bullets for accuracy... just my thoughts.

 

[Superbrad]

I have several calibers and like loading, shooting and hunting all of them, but in my opinion, .398 was always the all star in the family....... The .358 is a dandy woods cartridge and the .243 is a wonderful varmint and small deer round and the 7-08 is my choice in a whitetail rifle, but it's hard to argue against a .308 as a great all rounder.......

 

[Boomer]

If a premium bullet increases the lethality of any member of the .308 family of cartridges, its sure to be the high velocity small bores like the .243, and similar wildcats that benefit. A .308 loaded with a premium bullet can do what the .308 has always been able to do; kill all but the very largest species of big game animals, across typical hunting ranges. It does this while producing recoil and muzzle blast levels that are manageable for most adults capable of facing the rigors of such endeavors, without the need for weekly range sessions to harden against the effects of heavy recoil produced by the .30 caliber magnums. Due to its moderate velocity envelope, and high SD bullets, loading a premium bullet on a .308 cartridge doesn't make it any more capable or lethal, than it was with a good cup and core bullet of similar weight, although one might argue that recoil can be reduced by choosing a lighter bullet, that impacts at higher velocity, but the animal will be just as dead. But a premium bullet is a major upgrade for the .243, providing expansion to nearly .50 caliber and a foot and a half of penetration due to its high percentage of weight retention. I'm still not a fan of using the .243 for game larger than caribou, but the use of premium bullets is a step in the right direction for those intent on doing so.

 

[Brian46]

I find stalking up close part of the fun of hunting.

I do both, I just don't limit myself to only one method. That way I can hunt these few special areas I found where there is always lots of game but are not approachable

I'm curious though, at what yardage do you consider hunting changes to "sniping" as you call it?