having a hard time deciding between a rolling block or Trap door

rci2950

rci2950

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Looking at the Pedersoli Rolling block and Trapdoor rifles/Carbines in either 45/70 or 38/55. These are new production firearms and proofed to modern standards. Does anyone have experience with either? Since this will be an online purchase and i will not be able to hold one until i have bought it i am relying on others experience. My usage will be range fun and ocasional deer hunting. So first question, is the rifle too long and unweildly? Would I be better off with the carbine taking into consideration the loss of bullet velocity with the shorter barrel? Right now my black powder fun includes an 1842 Springfield reproduction and an English Trade gun (Flintlock). But in the groups best opinion would i be better off with the shorter version? Secondly I am having a hard time deciding between the rolling block and the trapdoor. I like the way the trapdoor looks over the rolling block but as I understand the trapdoor is a lot weaker then the rolling block and can only fire low power cast bullets.... Is this still true in a new Pedersoli? I would like to be somewhat effective on eastern White Tail deer. I hunt from a treehouse that has a bait pile about 50 yards away. The shorter carbine would come in handy here. But also the higer velocity of the rifle....

So if anyone can help me decide. I am probably going to go with 45/70 since that seems like the more common chambering and is the more effective hunting round.


Anyway what does CGN think?
 
Tough call. Have experience with both. For your hunting needs, the trapdoor carbine in 45-70, would be the logical choice. Very easy to use in a tree stand, or while still hunting. Also balance very well, in that configuration. Pedersoli rifles...in either rolling block, or trapdoor Springfield configuration.... are built to handle modern, SAAMI spec ammunition, without issue. Winchester and Remington, for example, load their 45-70 ammo to Springfield specs.
The rolling block does offer a stronger lockup. But, not enough, in my view, to favour the rolling block over the trapdoor Springfield. When shooting factory spec. ammo. Stay within the rifle's limitations, and you will have no problems.
Nor will having adequate power be a problem. That big, .45-calibre bullet hits with authority. I wouldn't lose any sleep about the velocity loss, in the carbine length barrel, either. At your preferred hunting distance...50 yards....it won't be enough to make much of a difference, on a white tailed deer. After having hunted extensively with the 45-70, its my opinion that a 405-grain, jacketed 45-70 bullet, is serious medicine for any white tail, at close to moderate woods ranges. Cast lead bullets are even more fun. If so inclined, that same weight bullet, powered by a full charge of Goex Ffg, will likewise take care of business, in very short order.
I don't envy you having to make the call. Either rifle will serve you very well. If you do have the chance, before making a decision....try to handle each rifle. Then decide which one you prefer. Or: Flip a coin?
 
You can shoot factory 45/70 rounds out of the Pedersoli trapdoor no problem but it cannot fire hot loads loads through it and to be honest you wouldn t want to if it could as the recoil would not be pleasant.If it were me I would choose a pedersoli officers model trapdoor especially if you want to hunt with it.it comes with a single set trigger and a tang sight and has a real nice look.Rolling blocks tend to be a bit on the heavy side for all day carry hunting
 
There is a warning on the Trapdoors, beware of the loads you put through, it is not strong enough for strong loads even new replicas, its the design. Most box ammunition is downloaded due to this, or it will say on the box, Trapdoor safe, something like that. Do not put hot loads through it.

From Pedersoli Manual

LOADING AND FIRING
1)Use only factory loaded .45-70 ammunition C.l.P ruled or reloaded with black powder (or
Pyrodex, if allowed in your Country). Ammunition used should not exceed 18,000 C.U.P.
2)Put hammer (part. # 21) at half ####. Keep finger off trigger (part. # 49).
3)Open action (part. # 15) by pushing forward and up on breech block release lever (part. #
14).
4)When open, inspect chamber and barrel to see that they are free of obstruction.
5) Insert cartridge into the chamber ( picture #28 ). Make sure rim of cartridge does not go
beyond extractor (part. # 7).
 
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I have an original trapdoor rebarreled to 38-55 and an original rolling block rebarreled to 38-56. My choice would be a rolling block because you can clean the bore from the breach which reduces wear at the muzzle. If you do any amount of long range shooting with black powder, it is an advantage to be able to run a brush through the bore from the back, between shots

cheers mooncoon
 
chasseur said:
You can shoot factory 45/70 rounds out of the Pedersoli trapdoor no problem but it cannot fire hot loads loads through it and to be honest you wouldn t want to if it could as the recoil would not be pleasant.If it were me I would choose a pedersoli officers model trapdoor especially if you want to hunt with it.it comes with a single set trigger and a tang sight and has a real nice look.Rolling blocks tend to be a bit on the heavy side for all day carry hunting
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I will be at first buying handloads from a british guy named Peter that a lot of Nova Scotia gunnutz probably know. Then once I have a supply of brass I will start to loading them on my own. His Cowboy action loads are top quality. I really like that officers model but the price is so much more then the standard one. It might be worth thinking about saving longer.


Forty4Forty said:
There is a warning on the Trapdoors, beware of the loads you put through, it is not strong enough for strong loads even new replicas, its the design. Most box ammunition is downloaded due to this, or it will say on the box, Trapdoor safe, something like that. Do not put hot loads through it.

From Pedersoli Manual
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I can keep it within reasonable limits. I am currently a handloader, (.308 win, 300 RUM, .416 Rigby and .458 Win mag). I would likely later want the stronger one though. I am still on the fence.


mooncoon said:
I have an original trapdoor rebarreled to 38-55 and an original rolling block rebarreled to 38-56. My choice would be a rolling block because you can clean the bore from the breach which reduces wear at the muzzle. If you do any amount of long range shooting with black powder, it is an advantage to be able to run a brush through the bore from the back, between shots

cheers mooncoon
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I am starting to lean this way, or I will eventually end up with both. I watched some Hikok45 vids and the rolling block looks pretty good too.

tiriaq said:
Given the price of the repros, there is no reason not to buy an original.
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QM 86 said:
Buy an original. I like the 50-70.
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I am buying it to use, I know this might sound weird but if I had an original I would be reluctant to take it out and enjoy it for fear of ruining it. A reproduction I will be able to freely enjoy.
 
rci2950 said:
I am buying it to use, I know this might sound weird but if I had an original I would be reluctant to take it out and enjoy it for fear of ruining it. A reproduction I will be able to freely enjoy.
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Relative to the fear of ruining it depends on the quality of the original gun you are buying. Most original rolling blocks and trapdoors that I see have the finish worn from the barrel and action and I doubt that shooting them will change their value or condition to any meaningful amount. The antiques that I have, I buy to shoot and if their barrels and bores are toast then I either rebarrel them or sleeve them into shooting condition. The 38-55 for example, had the forestock shortened and the barrel cut back to 20" or so plus its accuracy was minute of mastodon. I put on a good quality second hand 38-55 barrel and now it is a shooter and accurate. All that is left is to adjust the nut behind the trigger :>)

cheers mooncoon
 
I have a 1873 Trapdoor made in 1882 that belonged to my grandfather and has been in the family since late 1890’s and have the original bayonet with it. I shoot it a lot but with lead bullets only that I cast with the Lee 458-405 HB mold. Majority is with black powder but do shoot 27 grains of H4198. Using the information from Pat Wolfs book it shoots very well.

If you are thinking about getting a original Trapdoor then I highly suggest you get this book https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/272/1/BOOK-45-70-S which can be bought also from amazon. Also go to https://www.trapdoorcollector.com//index.html.
I’ve seen several trapdoors at various gun shows and for sale here and the majority are bastardized cobbled bubba guns but there are some out there that are original, in good condition and can be very good shooters if proper components and reloading is done.
I don’t know much about the rolling blocks but have been keeping an eye out for an original. Good luck in your endeavour.
 
Reeferman said:
I don’t know much about the rolling blocks but have been keeping an eye out for an original. Good luck in your endeavour.
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Re original rolling blocks, the New York Militia ones in 50-70 seem to have a long throat or long chamber and are much more accurate with a loverinn (several narrow cannelures) than with the government pattern. Reason is that the lovernin bullet has a rounder nose and can get much closer to the rifling than the government pattern

cheers mooncoon
 
I own H&R Trapdoors, several Shiloh '74s and one lone Rolling Block in .43 Spanish.

All have their virtues and idiosyncrasies. I have shot "moderate" loads in the Trapdoors without issue. The Shilohs are "bomb proof" but not ''idiot proof" and there have been detonations at the "Forsythe, Montana "Quigley" due to duplex loading.

My .43 Spanish is a bit of a kicker with it's military butt plate and bottle neck case.

If you mount a tang sight on a RB, chambering a long case can be problematic. It also has the weakest camming action on chambering and extraction.

My recommendation: a RB in 50-70. Easy to load for, drops anything it hits and is gentle on the shoulder.
 
Since you're already an experienced handloader, this likely doesn't come as any surprise that, Starline makes some of the best quality brass available. I use it now exclusively, in 45-70. Though you may be able to source it locally: Rusty Wood Trading, Double Tap Sports, and Budget Shooter Supply... all site sponsors, do stock Starline products. Have dealt with all three. Excellent service, throughout.

You also mentioned that you already shoot muzzleloading firearms. So, you are familiar with using a bore protector, to guard against damage to the muzzle crown. As mooncoon already mentioned, the rolling block is by far the easiest to maintain, as the chamber and bore can be cleaned from the breech end. In fact, the rolling block is likely one of the simplest rifles to completely strip down, for thorough internal cleaning.

However, the trapdoor rifle can be pretty easy to clean, too.

I use two methods: From the breech end, using a pull-through jag(Otis)...or, bore snake. Does a pretty good job, for quick cleanups, in camp, etc. For a more thorough bore cleaning, I run a cleaning rod in from the muzzle end. With a bore protector in place....always....just like cleaning a muzzle loader.

Here's a tip: If you don't have a .45-sized bore protector ...you can 'redneck engineer' one, using a .30-30 case. Simply drill out the primer pocket to accommodate your cleaning rod. The .30-30 fits almost perfectly, into the Springfield's muzzle end. I leave them full length, to help further support and center the rod in the bore. I do the same with muzzle loaders. A .303 British case fits: .50 cal. While 45-70 case fits: .54. Might be useful info.

I doubt very much this info is making your decision any easier. The only solution may be.... to eventually buy one of each. Its just too bad that Pedersoli doesn't chamber their Sporting Rife, in 45-70. That might make the choice easier. Though there are no flies on the .38-55. An excellent hunting cartridge, in its own right. I own a vintage Winchester '94 chambered for that round. No complaints, after many years of hunting service.

Either will serve you very well, regardless.
 
I have decided to add the Sharps to the mix. I am starting to turn away from the trapdoor. As far as firing modern ammunition would the roller and sharps be the same as far as strength and firing modern 45/70 rounds?
 
To answer your question: Yes....both the Pedersoli Sharps, and Rolling Block rifles are capable of handling modern, 45-70 ammo. Within limits.

Pedersoli proof tests their modern reproduction rifles to operate within a 29000 psi maximum chamber pressure. This includes the Sharps, Rolling Block, and Trapdoor rifles. They specifically state that in no case, should cartridges exceed that pressure limit. So, as long as you stay within listed SAAMi spec for your loads(Factory, or reloads), you should be fine. For my own use, I prefer to load(reload) well below that max. pressure limit. Generally, no more than about 25000 psi...or even lower, with bp loads. Mostly, because I don't see any advantage in beating up either the rifle or myself, merely to gain a few more flinch-inducing fps of muzzle velocity. Even at the moderately sedate muzzle velocities of factory ammo....the mass of the 45-70's 458" dia. bullet carries plenty of energy....even at extended ranges, to cleanly take down game. Just as it has, since 1873. Since you already own a .458 Mag.; you certainly understand the performance value of a big, heavy bullet on game.

Note: The only time I will load to much higher operating pressure, is for loads used in the much, much stronger 1886 Winchester(own one). Still, the 45-70 is not a .458 Mag. So I don't treat it as such and respect its limitations.

If you have your eye on the Sharps Cavalry Carbine, these are neat, fast handling rifles. I don't own one of these, but a pal of mine does. I have shot it numerous times, though, and really like its handling qualities. In my opinion, the Sharps carbine and Trapdoor are on equal footing, as lightweight hunting rifles. They are also very easy to clean and maintain.

I doubt this has made your decision any easier. But hopefully, this info is somewhat useful.
 
Alex McKr said:
I doubt this has made your decision any easier. But hopefully, this info is somewhat useful.
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I'm also interested in getting into BP and have been following this thread very closely. Your info is very timely and looking forward to more of your posts.

"Somewhat useful", yep keep them coming.....
 
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