HBC Trade Rifle

MP38

MP38

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I have an opportunity to pick up this rifle and would really appreciate any comments or opinions.
Thank you!

Seller's description...
- flint conversion
- carbine length (common for Indian guns)
- post 1821 (HBC and NW Co. merger) Fox on Tombstone on lock, sidelock changed from serpentine
- all original except possible the ramrod...no modern parts or modern repairs

img6855.jpg
 
Too bad about the conversion from flint but that could be restored if you wanted. I'm virtually certain the barrel originally was longer than now. It has been shortened: the ramrod pipe is too close to the muzzle and that pipe should be to the rear of the forward barrel retaining pin. On any I have seen, the forestock wood is relieved along the ramrod channel for 3 - 4" immediately behind the muzzle to allow a better grip on the ramrod. Also those that I have seen have a front sight of some sort about 3" back from the muzzle and yours does not. Otherwise a nice, sound looking piece... maybe shootable?
 
HBC rifle

I would say that this one has been cut down. The HBC were in the fur trade. I have seen references to what it would cost for this rifle. Apparently the Trader stood the rifle upright, and furs were piled up until they came level with the muzzle of the rifle.

Whether this I true or not, I can not say for certain, but it is an understandable way to put a value on something like this. We have to look at the period of time, when most of the people involved did not have a formal education. This would be something they could relate to.

Also, to have a firearm would be a bit of a status symbol. Much the same as now, where a $400 deer rifle will do the same thing as a $4000 one. There are a few Gunnutz that just HAVE to get the $4000 one.

Many of these rifles were converted from surplus military firearms by factories in England and Europe. The typical military rifle of the period had a long barrel. Others were purpose built for the trade.

:)One thing for sure....we now have positive proof that Bubba existed in those days too.:) (Couldn't help that one...it just slipped out because the Devil made me do it.)

Any HBC item is collectable, and they are getting a lot harder to find. Who knows what happened to have it shortened....an obstruction in the barrel, a weak portion near the muzzle, or on purpose to make it handier in the woods. It is a nice specimen and representative of it's type. A part of Canadian History.

Nice find.
.
 
buffdog said:
I would say that this one has been cut down. The HBC were in the fur trade. I have seen references to what it would cost for this rifle. Apparently the Trader stood the rifle upright, and furs were piled up until they came level with the muzzle of the rifle.

Whether this I true or not, I can not say for certain, but it is an understandable way to put a value on something like this. We have to look at the period of time, when most of the people involved did not have a formal education. This would be something they could relate to.

Also, to have a firearm would be a bit of a status symbol. Much the same as now, where a $400 deer rifle will do the same thing as a $4000 one. There are a few Gunnutz that just HAVE to get the $4000 one.

Many of these rifles were converted from surplus military firearms by factories in England and Europe. The typical military rifle of the period had a long barrel. Others were purpose built for the trade.

:)One thing for sure....we now have positive proof that Bubba existed in those days too.:) (Couldn't help that one...it just slipped out because the Devil made me do it.)

Any HBC item is collectable, and they are getting a lot harder to find. Who knows what happened to have it shortened....an obstruction in the barrel, a weak portion near the muzzle, or on purpose to make it handier in the woods. It is a nice specimen and representative of it's type. A part of Canadian History.

Nice find.
.
Click to expand...

It is an "urban" myth that trade guns were sold according to the stacked height of beaver pelts. When I was an interpreter at Old Fort William in Thunder Bay, we constantly had to dispel this one. The typical going rate on a trade gun at the time was 11 or so pelts. It all depended on the grade of the gun. The Northwest Company (and subsequently the HBC), desired to get as many guns out there as possible. Rather devious plan actually, because then the native hunter/trapper had to keep coming back for powder, balls and of course parts and repairs! (much like a modern Volkswagen or Volvo dealership...hehehe).

Your right...bubba's were quite common as owners customized their guns by decorating the stocks or repairing their stocks...it wasn't uncommon to see guns held together with rawhide or wire.

Cheers
 
Great feedback guys, thank you!
I know nothing of these trade guns, but just wanted to have one representative example.
This one attracted me as it has no modern parts or repairs, and I understand that barrels were often shortened for ease of use in the woods?
He also has an HBC flintlock with serpentine and another percussion conversion. Would those be more desireable even with repairs? What values to these things range in?
Thanks again for the terrific help!
 
I wish I knew how to post pics ,cause I have one to show.

In my research LOTS of companies made the Trade rifle for HBC..One of the main things was they were made cheap,shiny(polished or blued barrels) and had a serpeant(indians liked them for good luck),but not all. Most had a london proof (crown over the letters CP) makers stamp/s and other proofs if altered(there should be a stamp for conversion to percussion)The large trigger guard for gloves...ribbed brass ram rod tubes,shot gun bore (20 guage)most of the time.and yes there were carbines too.They were made for HBC and proofed (weird)..

DO not alter any thing on yours...it is nice example

and average Northwest Trade rifle was worth 20-22 beaver pelts


Hope I helped
 
Hard to tell from your photos but the barrel does not appear to have an octagon breach area and should have a circle fox on it as well. Based on the butt plate and the side plate where the serpent should be, I think the gun is a restock using possibly bess parts but a trade gun lock and trigger guard.

cheers mooncoon
 
Below are three original trade guns. the lock on the top one is home made but conforms to the lock recess. The one on the bottom is virtually unfired but is original.
Trade guns were cut down on occasion because the barrels were damaged and/or to make them more convenient for packing around. They often had crude rear sights chopped into the breach area of the barrel with a cold chisel. The large trigger guard was because many had such heavy trigger pulls it required two fingers to pull the trigger. I have lost the source for that statement but it comes from the journal of a person during the early 1800s who was familiar with the guns and their use

cheers mooncoon

Tradeguns3b.jpg


TradeGunLockb.jpg


Serpentb.jpg
 
Imagine paying a stack of furs for one of those! The longer the barrel the better I guess.

The aboriginals liked the serpents so much they used to sell those separately! I've seen photos of chest pieces made out of say a dozen of them.

My guess would be that the trigger guards were made to fit a gloved hand, but then trigger guards were overly large in the late 18th century anyway.
 
You have one of the Wheeler made variants. Wheeler made fusils of this type, with deviations from the standard trade gun pattern - barrel profile, sideplate. The gun never had a serpent sideplate. I have never seen this pattern of gun made by any contractor other than Wheeler, and I have seen enough of them to believe that it was a standardized pattern.
I do not know for whom they were made. I do not think that the post merger identification is correct, I believe the gun is earlier. I am not convinced that the guns were actually made for a fur trading company. They may even have been distributed for militia use. The circle fox mark is not a guarantee that these guns were made for the NW Company.
Don't be reconverting the gun to flint. This "restoration", if done well, destroys evidence of historical use of the piece, and if done badly, is bubba work.
The large trigger guard was not intended for use with mittens - it was to enable the trigger to be pulled with two fingers, because trigger pulls tended to be heavy.
 
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