Headspace gauges?

whitetailwoodsarcher

CGN Regular
Rating - 100%
29   0   1
Ok well I'm looking to invest in some headspacing gauges. I just don't know where to start. It's for my norinco m14 type rifles. I want to be able to shoot both 308 and 7.62 out of them. As I understand there are gauges for 7.62 and 308?? The reason I plan on getting some is a plan to re barrel and lap a couple new bolts into the rifles. But that won't be for a while until I know more about it. Any help would be appreciated!
 
Your best bet if money is not an object would be to buy a full set of Forster gauges. They are .308 gauges and a full set allows you to accurately set your head space to where ever you want it. The difference between 308 and 7.62 would be that a 7.62 set would just be a field set, GO, NO GO, and FIELD. Midway sells the complete set for $200 and a field set will run you about $80 (US dollars).

If you want to shoot both you'll need to set your rifle up for 7.62 which is a little looser.
 
Midway does not export anything since they got caught do it several years ago. However, you can order headspace guages directly from Clymer or Forster or Pacific Tool and Guage. Tools are not controlled bythe U.S. government either.
Headspace guages do not allow you to set the headspace. They only tell you if the headspace is within spec. There's no such thing as a "field set' either. There are only the three. You will need all three, if you're changing barrels. No lapping is involved.
You can shoot .308 and 7.62 NATO out of any rifle chambered for either. Before there was an internet, literally millions of rounds of commercial hunting ammo were fired out milsurp battle rifles and a like number of milsurp ammo out of commercial hunting rifles with no fuss at all. Just as many rounds were reloaded for the same rifles.
 
OK sun or ray....tell me how military ammo measured at 1.635 will work in my 1.630 m305 chamber?

What you are suggesting goes against everything that the m14/m1a experts (read military/ex military) say.

With the m14 platform stay away from shooting military ammo if your headspace is 1.634 or less.

All commercial 308 ammo I have measured has been 3-4 thou. below 1.630.
 
I have a question for the 7.62x51 and 308 difference

I have a bolt action rifle 7.62x51et I had a 308 gauge no go and it closes

but was told that it could happen that a 7.62x51 rifle firm about 308 no go gauge

is this true??

it is a rifle shot in perfect condition

thank you
 
.308 go guage is 1.630. .308 no go is 1.634
7.62 go gauge is 1.634.

Generally in a bolt gun using either is not an issue.

For the m14 platform it does become an issue. The m14 has a floating firing pin and proper ammo becomes important.

Roomier chambers are to make sure that the military rifles can operate in adverse conditions
 
When you check the head space with the gauges, You want the bolt to be able to close on GO but not close on NO-GO. If the bolt won't close on GO, then the headspace is too short. If the bolt does close on NO-GO, then the head space is too long. FIELD gauges by themselves is not always an accurate way to check for headspace. You want it to not close so that you know that headspace is below maximum spec but the rifle should still be checked with the NO-GO gauge. However, if the bolt closes on a FIELD gauge, then the rifle is completely unsafe to fire. A FIELD gauge is good enough to tell you if a rifle is unsafe but doesn't necessarily tell you how safe the rifle is if the bolt can't close on it. For example, A rifle that was checked for headspace didn't close on the FIELD gauge but closes on the NO-GO gauge. That means that the headspace is worn out to the boarder line of its service. You might get some cases that don't split and you might get that one out of 20 that does split.
 
ok so let me get this strait. I only need two 7.62 gauges a maximum chamber length and a minimum length one? if the bolt closes on the minimum it is good to fire. If it closes on the maximum its not ok to fire? how do I actually measure the headspace? also if I were to put in a new bolt and the head space is to short or to long then what??? bear with me im still a pretty big noob to this stuff!
 
Your best bet if money is not an object would be to buy a full set of Forster gauges. They are .308 gauges and a full set allows you to accurately set your head space to where ever you want it. The difference between 308 and 7.62 would be that a 7.62 set would just be a field set, GO, NO GO, and FIELD. Midway sells the complete set for $200 and a field set will run you about $80 (US dollars).

If you want to shoot both you'll need to set your rifle up for 7.62 which is a little looser.
Hey there...
Just wanted to say welcome back ;)
 
In regards to m305 using NEW parts.
(Some GI bolts will drop right in.)

Right on for the go/no go

You can buy the right tools for measuring headspace. Places like Brownell sells them.
Cheap and dirty way is to measure a fired case, usually accurate to one to two thou. depending on the brass.
Replacement parts are generally oversized and meant to be fitted. You will end up with a undersized chamber. 1-3 thou. can be made up by lapping the bolt. Anything more than that and you nead a chamber reamer. Chromed lined barrels can not be reamed.
ok so let me get this strait. I only need two 7.62 gauges a maximum chamber length and a minimum length one? if the bolt closes on the minimum it is good to fire. If it closes on the maximum its not ok to fire? how do I actually measure the headspace? also if I were to put in a new bolt and the head space is to short or to long then what??? bear with me im still a pretty big noob to this stuff!
 
http://m14forum.com/gus-fisher/66601-little-bit-everything-do-headspace.html

Everything below written by Gus Fisher.

Part I


Folks, I thought it might be a good idea to make one sticky about headspace that people can refer back to as needed, rather than having short posts strung all through the forum. So let’s start with what Headspace is and why it is important.


Having the correct headspace is a HUGE Safety Concern in all firearms and especially in center fire rifle cartridges because the pressures involved are much higher than other firearms. Both the M1 Garand and the M14 operate at 55,000 pounds of pressure at the breech. Nothing to sneeze at or mess around with and this is serious business.


MINIMUM HEADSPACE: This is the amount of room necessary to ensure the longest cartridge manufactured to correct specifications will fit and will have enough room to expand to seal the chamber. There has to be enough room for the cartridge case to expand so there isn’t too much pressure on the rifle. I personally fixed a DCM M1 Garand that had exceptionally short headspace. (Don’t know how it got out of the Arsenal that way, but they never finish reamed the chamber.) When fired, that rifle cracked stocks within two clips of ammo and the owner said it “kicked like a mule.” I’m sure it did. Fortunately, when he told me about it I got him to STOP shooting the rifle until I could correctly cut the minimum headspace. Had he continued to fire that rifle that way, the super high chamber pressures generated because the cartridge case didn’t have enough room to expand would have at least indented his receiver and bolt, besides continuing to damage stocks. It would also have caused the bolt and receiver to crack, chip or break had he continued to fire them and his rifle would have wound up as a pile of junk. You don’t want a chunk of metal from the receiver or bolt coming back into your eyes, even if you wear shooting glasses.




MAXIMUM HEADSPACE: This is the amount of room necessary so the shortest cartridge manufactured to correct specifications will fit and will have enough room to expand to seal the chamber without expanding so far that the cartridge case will expand until it ruptures or a piece of the cartridge case breaks off. When that happens, you are going to get a good deal of nasty and hot gas coming back into the action and towards your eyes. God Help you if you aren't wearing shooting glasses, as you could very likely suffer permanent eye damage. Much of the gas coming back normally blows the magazine base out the bottom of the magazine well and cracks and splinters the stock along the sides of the magazine well at least. That usually isn't life threatening, but you may wind up with some good sized chunks of stock in your supporting hand/arm. I've seen up close one real, G.I. M14 blow up and while it didn't come close to killing the Marine, it would have taken out his eyes had he not been wearing shooting glasses.


Military rifles often allow more of a minimum to maximum headspace length to take care of the variance of Mil Spec ammo and because the firearms will be fired in bad weather, will fill up with powder residue when fired a lot and/or where sand, mud and other “junk” can get into the chamber. The headspace is also more generous because military rifles are fired faster and with more rounds fired faster. That means the barrel will heat up and thus “close in” the headspace when the barrel gets hot. The heat expansion will the actually cause headspace to close up a bit when the barrel really heats up. So, there has to be a little more headspace room than in civilian rifles. EDITED TO ADD: Military spec. cartridge cases also have thicker brass to take the strain of larger headspace dimensions as well.


OK, so how is headspace measured? Well, that’s different for different types of cartridges, so let’s just stick to the M1 and M14 rifle because this thread is going to get long enough as it is. Grin. Headspace in these rifles is defined as the space or distance between the face of the bolt and to a point in the barrel chamber for the angled shoulder for the cartridge case. That point is called the datum point (or sometimes Datum line) in the chamber. Correct Headspace overall length and the datum point for these cartridges are specified in government specifications and/or The American Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute; hereafter mentioned by the common acronym of SAAMI and pronounced “sammy.” (A little more on this later.) The government arsenals had some very precise special adjustable gauges to check headspace, but even they usually used Headspace Gages that are precision ground to a precise length. Almost every civilian gunsmith or armorer uses individual Headspace Gages to inspect or chamber a rifle. So let’s go over the most common ones next.


The “ GO “ Gage: This is the shortest Headspace Gage and is used to check and ensure the chamber has the MINIMUM headspace necessary for reliable and safe operation for even the longest cartridge case that is still inside manufacturing specifications.


The “ NO GO “ Gage: This is the most widely MISUNDERSTOOD Headspace Gage and causes the most confusion to a whole lot of folks. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard or seen incorrect things said or written about this Gage and sometimes by people who SHOULD know better. This Gage is used by Arsenals or gunsmiths/armorers when they cut the Headspace in the chamber of a rifle along with the GO Gage. You have to cut the Headspace deep enough so the GO Gage will fit without showing additional friction on the bolt. That gives you the Minimum Required Headspace. You then use the NO GO Gage to ensure you don’t cut too much Headspace when you first chamber a rifle. Headspace may increase as much as one or two thousandths of an inch ( .001” to .002” ) during the entire life of the barrel until you shoot the lands out. SO you have to have a NO GO Gage to show you where to stop cutting and ensure there will not be too much Headspace throughout the entire life of the barrel. (IOW, when you stop cutting the headspace - there will still be a few thousandths of an inch before you hit the Maximum Headspace length.) The NO GO Gage is NOT the maximum gage and it is NOT the Gage that tells you the Headspace is too much or too deep. If you don’t cut Headspace, you really don’t even need this gage to check for safe Minimum and Maximum Headspace.


The “ Field Reject “ Gage: OK, THIS Headspace gage is the gage you use to check for Maximum Safe Headspace even when you get the shortest cartridge made to specifications. If the bolt closes on this gage without additional friction than before you had the Field Reject Gage in the chamber, then the barrel is UNSAFE and no one should fire the rifle until the barrel is pulled and a new one is installed. If one wishes to have the two necessary Gages to check Headspace, you need this Field Reject Gage and the GO Gage for any individual caliber.


There are going to be additional posts containing additional information. So please stay tuned. Grin.
 
Part II


OK, remember from the above post that Headspace Dimensions can be taken from both the U.S. Government Arsenals and/or SAAMI specifications? Before I go further I want to add that the dimensions might APPEAR to be different between them when you only look at the listed length dimensions. This is really important and caused quite a ruckus a few years ago when SAinc. started writing down the headspace on a tag they attached to the M1 Garand rifles they built with commercial receivers. The Headspace readings they wrote down were hugely different from the normal readings we see from Government Gages or from Gages made to Government specs. That FREAKED OUT a whole bunch of folks because they thought the barrels had been improperly cut for Headspace. When I first ran across this, I used my Government Gages that had been calibrated and found the SAinc. headspace was fine – as I figured it would be. SAinc. used gages that had the SAAMI spec reading on them and that’s why the readings were different.


SAAMI gages in .30-06 have a different length reading because they are measured to a different Datum line on the angled shoulder of the gage. The angle is different than G.I. gages, BUT that doesn’t mean a problem, it merely means the Datum Point is in a different area on the gage. Since chamber reamers are also standardized, the chambers are going to be cut close to the same no matter who makes the reamer. Not everyone has run across this or may have even heard about it, so I thought it was important to mention this as it may be something someone might run into on a M1 Garand or even a M14. I’m not sure if SAAMI length readings are different for .308/7.62mm and never saw them listed differently than how the government gages were listed, but if you run across this, just check them with regular gages and know the rifles will be fine when they pass headspace inspection with regular Gages.


Now it’s time to switch to another widely held misconception or myth about headspace on both M14’s and M1 Garands that are chambered in .308 or 7.62mm. These two calibers are pretty close to being the same with the main difference being the angle of the shoulder of the cartridge case, BUT they are NOT the same caliber. 7.62mm Nato ammo also has a slightly longer throat dimension than .308 Win.


Headspace lengths for caliber .308 Winchester


1.630" GO
1.634" NO GO
1.638" FIELD REJECT


The G.I. Headspace Gage lengths for 7.62mm


Go Gage...................................... 1.6355"
NO Go Gage................................ 1.6375"
Rebuild Maximum Gage.............. 1.6415"
Field Reject Gage....................... 1.6455"


NOTE: The information on Government Headspace Gage lengths was taken directly from the 3-5 Tech Manual and the Rebuild Standards manual published by Rock Island Arsenal.


Also, I would like to explain that "Rebuild Maximum Gage" reading of 1.6415". That is MY descriptive term for it because the Rock Island Arsenal Rebuild standards just list it as one of the three gages (by length) to be used for rebuild of real, G.I. M14's. Remember that Headspace should only grow at most one to two thousandths of an inch during the entire life of a barrel? If it goes much beyond that, you have a REAL problem with either the bolt or the receiver, or both. So, when they rebuilt rifles to 5th Echelon - Depot Repair Standards, they used 1.6415" as the maximum to ENSURE the barrel would not have a headspace problem during the entire life of a barrel. That “Rebuild Maximum Gage” ensures there is at least THREE thousandths of an inch less than the Field Reject of 1.6445", so there would almost never be a problem with Maximum Safe Headspace while the barrel was still good.


When we chambered (cut the Headspace) on real, G.I. NM M14 barrels for competition shooting in the Marine Corps, we used .308 Headspace Gages and chamber reamers. We used both NM G.I. Government “White Box” 7.62mm ammo and a proprietary Federal “NM type” .308 loaded ammo that has come to be called “Federal Gold Medal Match” in recent years. Everyone who doesn’t know should understand that NM ammo is loaded about 200 FPS LOWER and doesn’t develop quite as much chamber pressure as regular 7.62mm Nato ammo. Some NM Armorers in the Marine Corps (as well as some of the other Armed Forces NM Armorers) didn’t understand back in the early 1970’s that you can’t cut the chamber dimensions to a Minimum .308 Win. Headspace length and have both types of ammo perform properly in a Gas Operated Rifle. You can often, if not usually get away with it in a Bolt Action rifle, but NOT a “Gas Gun” as we called the M14. The reason for that is when you reload for a Bolt Gun, you only have to resize the neck. The expanded fired case will still chamber well in a Bolt Gun because of the mechanical advantage of the bolt action RAMMING the cartridge in the chamber. In a Gas Gun when you reload, you HAVE to resize the whole cartridge case or it won’t feed properly and will often get stuck in some chambers before the cartridge is fully seated. So in the real world, what did we find you have to do to chamber an M14 with NM 7.62mm ammo?


At first, we chambered NM M14’s pretty much the same way that NM M1903 rifles and other NM Bolt Action rifles had been chambered for decades. We chambered them as close to the minimum .308 Headspace length of 1.630” as possible. We also used Elliot Headspace Reamers that were absolutely the Ultimate Quality reamers in the 60’s and 70’s. These reamers were on the “tight side” of manufacturing tolerances. (Today, Clymer’s .308 Match Reamer gives a similarly tight NM chamber.) The Lake City, “White Box,” NM 7.62mm ammo in both 168 grain and 173 grain bullet loadings would function OK in most rifles, but not in all of them and not as accurately as we thought they should have with so tight of a chamber. We found that the rifles performed better and more accurately when chambered to between 1.631” and 1.633” when using NM 7.62mm ammo. Why was that? Well, look up above at the minimum chamber length for a 7.62mm GO Gage. That reading is 1.6335” for Nato Spec Ammo. We actually found it was better to ream Headspace a bit deeper before the answer hit us in a “No Scheit Sherlock” moment. What we did by lengthening the Headspace was to get it close to or right at the minimum 7.62mm chamber length even when using lower pressure NM ammo. So in the real world, it also shows up there is a difference between .308 and 7.62mm chambers. Well, that’s fine for NM or target grade barrels, but what about standard chambered rifle barrels?


Standard 7.62mm Nato ammo and ESPECIALLY foreign surplus ammo may or may not be held to true Nato specifications. One thing for sure is that standard 7.62mm ammo manufacturing specifications allows for a slightly longer cartridge case (and slightly longer neck) than .308 Winchester. Some Nato spec ammo like the really good Portugese 7.62mm Nato ammo is also a bit on the “hot” side of the 7.62mm range and that means slightly higher chamber pressures from the “Get Go.” So what does that mean in “the real world?”


If after reading all these posts on headspace you only remember two things, it is my most fervent hope you will remember these two things:


1. Do NOT use standard Nato Spec surplus ammo in a rifle chambered with a NM chamber and set up at the minimum headspace. Even if the rifle functions with no apparent problems, the chamber pressure of each round fired is significantly more than in a proper Nato Spec chamber. What you are doing is subjecting your bolt and receiver to more abuse and it will AT LEAST cause your bolt and receiver to wear out faster. If the cartridge case brass alloy of some of the questionable foreign surplus is used, you are also asking for cartridge case ruptures and gas and pieces of brass coming back into your face and possibly into your eyes.


2. If you are shooting 7.62mm ammo in a rifle chambered for .308 Winchester and the ammo does not feed and function properly and/or if the ammo has a greater “kick” or much louder noise than usual; PLEASE stop firing that ammo in your rifle. Now, this sounds like it should be a common sense reaction, but I have seen and heard of WAY too many people who continue to fire ammo that does these things. At a local range about 20 years ago, I was next to a guy who kept shooting some junk 7.62mm ammo is his M1A and about every 7th or 8th round wouldn’t chamber or he had trouble extracting the cartridge case. I warned him about the possible ramifications of firing that ammo, but he ignored the warnings. OK, I got up and moved all my stuff to the shooting bench the furthest away from him as I could and waited to shoot when he wasn’t shooting. He asked me why I moved and I told him I didn’t want to be close to that rifle when the cartridge case ruptured or his rifle broke and pieces of metal came flying off the rifle. He again ignored me and went back to shooting the rifle because, “I didn’t know what I was talking about.” Yep, he eventually ruined his bolt and receiver from firing that junk 7.62mm ammo, though fortunately in his case no one got hurt. God seems to sometimes protect even the worst idiots from their own bad actions at times.


OK, so CAN a rifle be chambered so that both .308 Winchester and GOOD 7.62mm Nato Ammo be fired in it without problems? The good news is yes it can. Most factories who make or fully assemble their rifles chamber them so you CAN shoot both, but it is not absolutely certain in every rifle and with every type of 7.62mm Nato Ammo. Please see Number 2. above.


Now, the GREAT thing is that if a rifle is chambered so that the bolt correctly closes on a 7.62mm GO gage at 1.6355" and does not close on either a 7.62mm NO GO gage of 1.6375" or the .308 Field Reject of 1.638" - then there are absolutely no worries about shooting either .308 nor 7.62mm in the rifle. This is how I chamber Garands and semi auto M14's for folks who want to shoot both .308 and 7.62mm surplus. (I chamber them so the bolt won't close around 1.635" to 1.636".)


If you use .308 Winchester Headspace gages, exclusively, you can still chamber the rifle correctly for 7.62mm as well. You want the bolt to just close without friction on the NO GO gage. That will ensure you have the minimum for 7.62mm and not too much headspace for the .308 at 1.638".


OK, that’s enough for this post. Stay tuned as more is coming folks. Grin.

For parts III, IV and V use link in post #19.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom